Navy's MiG29 superior to IAF's Sukhoi 30

[Jade]

ps: Chairborne? I, definitely, think not

Bang on; Similar thought

 

[Storm Force]

Mig29k WILL BE A BEAST OF A PLANE. probably on Par to Both FC20 J10 and F16/52.

But nothing can live with the SU30MKI in South Asia

Rafael OR Typhoons arrive. Even then i, m guessing the Euro canards will be the SU30MKI SUPPORT TEEAM rather than adversary

 

[Break the Silence]

Mig29k WILL BE A BEAST OF A PLANE. probably on Par to Both FC20 J10 and F16/52.

But nothing can live with the SU30MKI in South Asia

Rafael OR Typhoons arrive. Even then i, m guessing the Euro canards will be the SU30MKI SUPPORT TEEAM rather than adversary

And one more point, I want to add is - whichever plane(su30mki or mig 29) will be proved better, but the best thing is that both are in Indian inventory...

 

[jha]

Mig29k WILL BE A BEAST OF A PLANE. probably on Par to Both FC20 J10 and F16/52.

But nothing can live with the SU30MKI in South Asia

Rafael OR Typhoons arrive. Even then i, m guessing the Euro canards will be the SU30MKI SUPPORT TEEAM rather than adversary

Very true...Any chance of Euro-Planes coming to area is in India..so both will play side by side not with each other...

 

[Break the Silence]

and they will play with whom????????
any guess??

 

[jha]

and they will play with whom????????
any guess??

I cant think of any worthy opponent..can you..?

 

[Break the Silence]

I cant think of any worthy opponent..can you..?

but there are lots who think they are!! seriously just imagine combo of su-30mki and ef-typhoon or rafale vs f-16

 

[WAQAS119]

and how many such capabilites are you aware of ?

I bet you have no idea about your own F-16 so forget about MKI's.

Off Topic but let me give a bit of explanation demanded by few member here..

Su30 seems to be in advantageous position than F16 but their are many aspects that has to be kept in mind.

Su30 is a biiiig plane, a wide wing span, two big engines, lots of heat thus high RCS which is a big disadvantage in front of any potent fourth generation battle proven jet like F-16.

Most of the specs clearly speaks in favour of MKI such as its radar range is almost 350Km for bigger targets but question is when it will be able to track small fighter having really low RCS. MKI's radar is mainly for bigger targets than an F16 but F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world and can track MKI from a large distance. Thus radar range advantage of MKI is mitigated here.

As far maneuverability of both jets is concerned!!! both are renowned for high maneuverability. Thus no advantage for any jet here.
MKI has thrust vectoring but big size, F16 doesn't have thrust vectoring but small size and highly maneuverable design.

F16 B-52 A2A missiles

Air-to-air missiles:
2× AIM-7 Sparrow
6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
6× IRIS-T or
6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+miles!!!!

SU-30 A2A missiles

Air to Air Missiles:
10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km


In a dogfight.

PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!

Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.


Now pilots ability also counts in such battles apart of machine, and PAF pilots are renowned world's best pilots with lot of appreciation from around the world for their abilities.

Thus I proved my point that potent jet can easily beat Su30 MKI, which is truly hyped up jet.

Gentlemen,

This is very confusing for a chairborne old fuddy-duddy.

The SU-30MKI is meant to range far and wide and strike down intruding aircraft at high-level and low-level alike using its BVR armament. It can also perform well in close combat. It has effective ranges of between 1300 to 5000 kms.


Is there any overlap between the two? Putting it another way, and quoting from the results of a similar development 'fork', would a beefed-up F16 challenge an F15?

All that the news report indicates is a certain amount of realignment of avionics, and a better integrated man-machine interface. Good stuff, but not class-breaking. The aircraft will remain a point interceptor.

I am not sure what the good people at RAC-MiG are trying to convey, but they aren't doing a very convincing job of it.

Sincerely,

F16 and F18 are only two fighters to kill F22 in a dog fight..speaks alot for its potential.

Even in F16s PAF pilots in Turkey flying against Typhoon has killed Typhoon three out of three times in a dog fight..

I just answered few queries I do not want to be a part of this thread further.
Bye Bye.

 

[you are fired]

the question is which one ur best hand left or right

come on man i love my both hands

mig 29 and su30 are in IAF rest meaningless

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Sir,

The compliments are embarrassing, but I shall take it that there is now a benchmark to live up to. Thank you for these undeserved bouquets.

E monihaar amae naahiN saaje|

A little corrections, but then excellently put! Bang on the point.

I am sorry to be a pedant, but the SU-22 was the Fitter, built for an interdiction role, and not up to the Sturmovik kind of configuration of WWII. On the other hand, the SU-24 was the original Frogfoot, the SU-25 was a stripped-down version and the SU-34 is a completely different animal, a deep-penetration bomber with a toilet for the crew for their extremely long-range flights (the SU-32 and the SU-34 are essentially from the same family). The SU-39 I had listed is an update for the Frogfoot, and has an amusing detail, very amusing indeed, and I hope both Pakistani and Indian observers will have noted it. I shall wait for a reaction on that.

To illustrate, the SU-24 or the SU-25 would go for tanks, SP artillery and missile batteries on the battlefield; they have armoured seats for the pilot, so nothing short of a catastrophic hit will hurt these planes, which are effectively flying bath-tubs made of reinforced steel.

Further back, within a 50 to 150 kms.range, the SU-22, which is no longer a choice for any air force which doesn't already have it in inventory, goes for rail junctions, road junctions, enemy assets on the move on rail or road or cross-country, utilities like dams and power-stations, airports and airfields, and enemy bases. That job is done for the IAF by the Mirage 2000 and the Jaguar.

Finally, if the enemy leadership is to be given a wake-up call in times of war, and they are, say, 1,000 kms. away, it is a job for the Fullback, the SU-32/SU-34 class of deep-strike fighter-bomber. It has been compared to an F15 in strike configuration, more aptly to an F111, and was intended to replace 400 SU-22s hanging around doing nothing.

There is a naval version designed and ready, and just waiting for the right partner air force to come along, and western analyst circles didn't know what to make of it, as earlier practice on both sides had been to use longer, larger airframes for naval strike roles (think Bear). But it makes an awful lot of sense; exactly the kind of thing we wouldn't like to see the PN, for instance, playing about with (drawing a circle with Karachi as the centre and a radius of 1,100 kms will explain the issue).

I hope that explains the differences between the Sukhoi aircraft types. Incidentally, the PAF knows all about the SU-22 from Afghanistan days.

ps: Chairborne? I, definitely, think not

I wish I could agree, but people across the fence in HAL in those days included a Wingco selling rotary wing aircraft whose daughter was Miss India, a Group Captain who was a living legend, having flown a Hunter at Longewal (he has written up his experiences), and an Air Commodore who inducted Mirages into the IAF, and was kind of the father of simulators in India. I wish I was free to describe the kind of set-up he built at a certain North Indian airbase.

Off Topic but let me give a bit of explanation demanded by few member here..

Su30 seems to be in advantageous position than F16 but their are many aspects that has to be kept in mind.

Su30 is a biiiig plane, a wide wing span, two big engines, lots of heat thus high RCS which is a big disadvantage in front of any potent fourth generation battle proven jet like F-16.

Most of the specs clearly speaks in favour of MKI such as its radar range is almost 350Km for bigger targets but question is when it will be able to track small fighter having really low RCS. MKI's radar is mainly for bigger targets than an F16 but F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world and can track MKI from a large distance. Thus radar range advantage of MKI is mitigated here.

As far maneuverability of both jets is concerned!!! both are renowned for high maneuverability. Thus no advantage for any jet here.
MKI has thrust vectoring but big size, F16 doesn't have thrust vectoring but small size and highly maneuverable design.

F16 B-52 A2A missiles

Air-to-air missiles:
2× AIM-7 Sparrow
6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
6× IRIS-T or
6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+miles!!!!

SU-30 A2A missiles

Air to Air Missiles:
10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km
6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km


In a dogfight.

PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!

Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.


Now pilots ability also counts in such battles apart of machine, and PAF pilots are renowned world's best pilots with lot of appreciation from around the world for their abilities.

Thus I proved my point that potent jet can easily beat Su30 MKI, which is truly hyped up jet.

That proves no such point. Winning paper wars is easy, given enough time and unlimited access to a keyboard.

But - and this is very important - the PAF is a formidable foe, which thinks its way through. AFAIK, it has never put a foot wrong; the PA, yes, often, more often foot-faulted than anything else; the PN, yes, never allowed to stir out of harbour except for the Ghazi, and when allowed, brave in battle, costing us a major surface combatant; the PAF, almost impeccable record, both in operations and in strategic planning. Their training is first-class; under Asghar Khan and Nur Khan, they built up a momentum which they have held on to by their fingernails. Their force planning has been nothing short of superb.

Now what does that mean for us today?

It means that they have thought their way out of their budget and their sanctions problems (I repeat, the PAF is not the PA; it is far better led). It means that they are

• using a lot of light, quick, relatively cheap aircraft
• with significant potential
• to fly multiple missions
• against the much more capable
• but fewer aircraft of the IAF
• and get their victories against both ground and air assets.

Let's face it; ADGES is simply not comprehensive enough, and there are chinks in the cover, through which an agile opponent can wriggle through and do an awful lot of damage.

With the oncoming withdrawal of our large numbers of MiG 21s, ideal against such an opposing line-up, and the possible delay in LCA deployment, there will be a period when these large numbers of mosquitoes will be left free to run, with a leaky radar cover, with insufficient aircraft to cover all the gaps, and with plenty of ground targets in an expanded Indian Army order of battle.

We discount them at our peril.

F16 and F18 are only two fighters to kill F22 in a dog fight..speaks alot for its potential.

Even in F16s PAF pilots in Turkey flying against Typhoon has killed Typhoon three out of three times in a dog fight..

I just answered few queries I do not want to be a part of this thread further.
Bye Bye.

Bad analogies.

It was F16 against its own half-brother, the F15. A little reading up on the history of the development of these aircraft will explain the point. This was not about the F16 being good or bad, it was about the relative positioning of the MiG 29 versus the SU30. As usual, we have been ambushed by an enthusiast who sees his loved one in danger of having her reputation besmirched.

Give us a break, please.

Sincerely,

 

[Chanakyaa]

@joe..

At last a serious reply.

Great Points.

 

[sancho]

Most of the specs clearly speaks in favour of MKI such as its radar range is almost 350Km for bigger targets but question is when it will be able to track small fighter having really low RCS. MKI's radar is mainly for bigger targets than an F16 but F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world and can track MKI from a large distance. Thus radar range advantage of MKI is mitigated here.

Bars can track fighter sized targets with a RCS of 5m2 at ranges of around 200 Km, so even against smaller fighters it offers good range. F16 B52 is expected with a RCS of 1.2m2 in clean config with, but even with AAMS and a fuel tank, this will rise. More interesting instead would be, when the APG 68 will be able to detect the MKI, because that will be the main limitation of the F16.
I expect both to be pretty equal in this field at the moment!

As far maneuverability of both jets is concerned!!! both are renowned for high maneuverability. Thus no advantage for any jet here.
MKI has thrust vectoring but big size, F16 doesn't have thrust vectoring but small size and highly maneuverable design.

Doubtful, because besides canards and TVC, which are additions to counter the higher weight of an twin seat changes and boost its manouverability compared to other Su 30s, you seem to forget that the MKI has the better T/W ratio!
On the other side the later versions of F16 are much heavier compared to the older B15 versions and the higher thrust engines will try to counter that too.
Also JHMCS is good, but really effective only with the AIM 9X, which PAF don't get (AIM 9M is on order) and the R73 instead is also known as a very good WVR missile, not to forget that the MKI has the superior Israeli EWS, so it should do pretty good in this field and has some advantages in dogfights too.

6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+miles!!!!

PAF don't get the AIM 120D, but the C5 version with 105Km range, which is similar to our R77 versions.

As you can see, the MKI has its downsides like any fighter too, but they still can keep some advantages, even over PAFs B52s and by the fact that this is

F16 .. to kill F22 in a dog fight..speaks alot for its potential.

An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 kill in Red Flag. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM: “At least half of the 94th FS crews had less than 50 hours in the F-22 and no matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake.

So it had less to do with the potential of the F16, than with less experienced F22 pilots right?

Even in F16s PAF pilots in Turkey flying against Typhoon has killed Typhoon three out of three times in a dog fight..

That's nothing but a rumour yet, from the F16 thread:

Re: PAF related discussion: May - August 2010
INTERVIEW WITH A PAF VIPER PILOT

This interview was taken a couple of months ago. I did not have the time to transcribe it. The identity of the pilot is being withheld and the interview has been edited.

I guess you don't want to say that this should be a reliable source right?

 

[Ping]

MKI's radar range is hyped up. N-011 BARS radar range is 140km for a 5m2 target. For Mig-29k's Zhuk-ME, it's 120km for a 5m2 target. So it's pretty close when you factor in RCS.

Talking about RCS, unlike specs such as engine thrust, Radar ranges etc, which is released in the public domain, a fighter plane's RCS is never given out. All the figures in websites you see are just guesses from analysts, who may very well be fanboys, or rabid haters of the jets. There may be a few exceptions where the RCS may be released, but the true RCS figures for Su-27/30, Mig-29 & F-16 are still tightly under wraps. Besides, when a war begins, all the tanks will only appear covered with ERA. And likewise seriously expect ram coatings on jets.

 

[Ping]

The reason why the bigger BARS has more or less the same range of the smaller Zhuk-ME is because, there is a decade difference of technology between them. BARS was given IOC in 1994, while Zhuk-ME in 2004. BARS is 16 year old technology!! We need to start MLUs for the MKIs in a few years.

 

[Kinetic]

Just marketing poly!!!! No doubt Mig-29K is good with new sensors and systems but SU-30MKI is a superior system all together. Range, agility, weapons load, radar and sensor-wise MKI is much better than 29K.

I think they were comparing it with IAF Mig-29 not MKI.