Navy considering having its own Tanker and AWACS fleet

[arp2041]

Growing number combat fleet in Indian air force with midair refueling capability in next few decade is forcing, Navy to considering buying its own dedicated fleet of Mid- air refuelers , Indian air force purchased six IL-78 based Mid- air refueling aircrafts from 2003 on-wards and navy has been sharing it with air force to refuel their own Sea Harriers .

With modernization of many of the combat jet in the Indian air force fleet (Mig-29UPG , Jaguars ,Tejas ) with midair refueling probe and growing aircrafts in its own fleet of combat aircrafts (Mig-29k, N-LCA) , Navy is worried about not finding mid-air refuelers for training with its crew for this particular task in future .

IAF’s IL-78MKI have already logged hundreds of hours in in-flight refueling hours after their induction in 2003 and also have participated in many international air exercise including in prestigious Red Flag exercise in United states , as per sources this aircrafts will require engine change soon ,since they have been flying almost on every day basics and have clocked in very high number of hours since it was required to provide in-depth training for Fighter pilots since it was a new capability which Indian air force had acquired .

Indian air force is already considering purchase of more six such aircrafts , and Russia have again offered IL-78 for IAF’s requirement’s along with offers from Airbus on their Airbus A320 , and has per recent media reports Airbus might have won the deal . Navy wants to purchase two of tankers for its own fleet .

Navy also seems to be interested in going for DRDO developed AWACS platform for its naval sea patrolling, Navy has already ordered Eight Boeing developed P-8l AWACS to replace Tu-142M and IL-38 platforms from its fleet and recently increased the orders by ordering four more P-8l , increasing the acquisition to 12 aircraft.

Navy considering having its own Tanker and AWACS fleet | idrw.org

 

[arp2041]

Well I think IN will desperately need it's own AWACS & AARs b'coz many of the future inductions of IN will be having AAR capability:

Mig 29Ks - 45 ordered as of now (AAR capable)
P-8Is - 12 ordered as of now, IN may eventually go for 24 of these (AAR capable)
LCA Navy - Based on LCA Mk-2 which will again be AAR capable, IN may go for 50-60 of these.
Rafale M - Maybe IN go for these for IAC-2, again AAR capable, IN can go for 50-60 of these.

So there will be around 250-300 ac in IN's inventory with AAR capability in future, currently IN depends on IAF for AARs.


IN will need AARs & AWACS to patrol IOR & beyond & give navy an Eye in Sky, IAF can't be trusted to share these ac with IN as they are finding themselves in short nos.

 

[Sergi]

Sounds logical. But I guess AWACS should first meet IAFs requirements. IAF need them more than IN. Both our neighbours already have good AWACS capabilities.

 

[hitenray09]

Navy also seems to be interested in going for DRDO developed AWACS platform for its naval sea patrolling, Navy has already ordered Eight Boeing developed P-8l AWACS to replace Tu-142M and IL-38 platforms from its fleet and recently increased the orders by ordering four more P-8l , increasing the acquisition to 12 aircraft.

Navy considering having its own Tanker and AWACS fleet | idrw.org

The P-8 is intended to conduct anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and shipping interdiction and to engage in an electronic intelligence (ELINT) role.

 

[sancho]

Well I think IN will desperately need it's own AWACS & AARs b'coz many of the future inductions of IN will be having AAR capability:

But won't be refuelled by shore based tankers! Most IN fighters and helicopters will be used on their vessels and will be deployed far away from their shore bases, that's why IN carriers will have fighters and helicopters for refuelling roles. The only aircraft that will be operated from their shore bases and needs this capability, will be the MPAs, which are roughly 20 to 30 aircrafts at max. MPAs like P8I will be mainly used for maritime surveillance, a linked with satcom to IN shorebases as well, the the basic maritime patrol duty can be done without additional AWACS, since it's not long range air control that is required here. AWACS for the navy is again mainly meant for carrier operations and there IN needs AEW helicopters or in future maybe catapult capable aircrafts, but not dedicated shore based AWACS.

Unless the shore based maritme attack role of fighters, won't be diverted to IN, it is more effective when IAF simply orders more tankers and AWACS to extend their operations to the costal areas, while training, logistics and types of aircrafts and AWACS systems remains the same too.

 

[arp2041]

But won't be refuelled by shore based tankers! Most IN fighters and helicopters will be used on their vessels and will be deployed far away from their shore bases, that's why IN carriers will have fighters and helicopters for refuelling roles. The only aircraft that will be operated from their shore bases and needs this capability, will be the MPAs, which are roughly 20 to 30 aircrafts at max. MPAs like P8I will be mainly used for maritime surveillance, a linked with satcom to IN shorebases as well, the the basic maritime patrol duty can be done without additional AWACS, since it's not long range air control that is required here. AWACS for the navy is again mainly meant for carrier operations and there IN needs AEW helicopters or in future maybe catapult capable aircrafts, but not dedicated shore based AWACS.

Unless the shore based maritme attack role of fighters, won't be diverted to IN, it is more effective when IAF simply orders more tankers and AWACS to extend their operations to the costal areas, while training, logistics and types of aircrafts and AWACS systems remains the same too.

I thought 3 AWACS & 3 AAR can cater to the short to medium term demand of IN, besides what if we keep our refuellers stationed on say Madagascar coast, this can give IN planes capability to patrol every nook & corner of IOR.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Very much needed IMHO the IAF's number of IFR capable a/c is increasing year on year so the demand on its AAR assets is only going to increase. For its own needs the IN defiantly needs it own assets. It seems the IN will simply buys a few of whatever AAR wins the IAF's MRTT completion (most likely A330 MRTT). The IAF too needs to signifcantly increase its order to be able to have a fleet of atleast 18-22 AARs by 2017-22. I'm sure they'll do this though after a the funds are there.

Also are the AWACS they speak to be shore based or for their future ACCs?

 

[arp2041]

Also are the AWACS they speak to be shore based or for their future ACCs?

I think they are seriously thinking of inducting few E-2D, but i don't think it can be based on either Viky or Vikrant, so most probably for IAC-2.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think they are seriously thinking of inducting few E-2D, but i don't think it can be based on either Viky or Vikrant, so most probably for IAC-2.

Yes there was news not too long ago that the USG had cleared the sale of the laureates E-2, the E-2D to India and that the IN bad been briefed on the a/c. And yes the E-2D requires a CATOBAR carrier AKAIK to operate from so IAC-2 onwards. But I had also heard not too long ago that the IN were interested in their own shore based AWACS.

 

[sancho]

I thought 3 AWACS & 3 AAR can cater to the short to medium term demand of IN, besides what if we keep our refuellers stationed on say Madagascar coast, this can give IN planes capability to patrol every nook & corner of IOR.

What for? Which subs should we hunt around Madagascar? Our prime focus will be the Arabian Sea, the Mallacca Straight and our Coastlines in the south and these areas will be covered by Indian shore bases and for such a small number of aircrafts, it simply is not useful to set up own logistics. Infact I don't know any other navy that operates own shorebased AWACS or tanker aircrafts.

 

[sancho]

Yes there was news not too long ago that the USG had cleared the sale of the laureates E-2, the E-2D to India and that the IN bad been briefed on the a/c. And yes the E-2D requires a CATOBAR carrier AKAIK to operate from so IAC-2 onwards. But I had also heard not too long ago that the IN were interested in their own shore based AWACS.

IN has interest in shore based AWACS, E-2Ds and G550 Phalcons were on offer and partially even showed at Aero India, but that doesn't mean they will get it, nor that these aircrafts are the only options. Again, IAF could easily procure some more EMB 145 DRDO AWACS to patrol the Sea Lanes alongside the coastlines, while IN will get AWACS for their carriers.

 

[The A-5]

IN has interest in shore based AWACS, E-2Ds and G550 Phalcons were on offer and partially even showed at Aero India, but that doesn't mean they will get it, nor that these aircrafts are the only options. Again, IAF could easily procure some more EMB 145 DRDO AWACS to patrol the Sea Lanes alongside the coastlines, while IN will get AWACS for their carriers.

Sancho bro, the IAC-2 will be a 65k ton CATOBAR carrier, for this AC we definitely need onboard AWACS.

The U.S. Grumman E-2D Adavnced Hawkeye is a very capable system, but it is extremely costly, and it most probably comes with a 100 strings attached (especially since this has to do with sophisticated electronic equipment).

So how about India decides to revive the old Soviet Antonov An-71 AEW&C aircraft project? We should negotiate the matter with Ukraine. The An-71 is a turbofan-powered jet aircraft and possibly gives better flight performance than the turboprop-powered E-2D. India should fund the revival of this project and urge Antonov OKB to sell the background IPRs to India's NAL so that we can build it here. We may need quite a respectable number of such carrier-capable AWACS aircraft for IAC-2 as well as any other aircraft carrier we may build after that.

We can either tell DRDO/CABS to design a new version of the 360-degree static dome AWACS radar that they are already working on in the AWACS India project. Or we can purchase the Elta EL/W-2090 Phalcon AWACS radar directly from Israel - like the one on the AEW&C version of C-295 aircraft.

 

[SQ8]

IN has interest in shore based AWACS, E-2Ds and G550 Phalcons were on offer and partially even showed at Aero India, but that doesn't mean they will get it, nor that these aircrafts are the only options. Again, IAF could easily procure some more EMB 145 DRDO AWACS to patrol the Sea Lanes alongside the coastlines, while IN will get AWACS for their carriers.

The IN can stick the approach used by the Russians and British by using helicopters as AEW platforms.
Although there are issues with the vibration that is associated with them, a platform like the AW101 solves these to quite an extent.
These can be data linked to IAF assets and in turn be linked to the CnC center on board the carriers.
The solutions are not expensive as buying E2D's or otherwise and the associated cost of modifying the carrier and its facilites to operate them and otherwise.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The IN can stick the approach used by the Russians and British by using helicopters as AEW platforms.
Although there are issues with the vibration that is associated with them, a platform like the AW101 solves these to quite an extent.
These can be data linked to IAF assets and in turn be linked to the CnC center on board the carriers.
The solutions are not expensive as buying E2D's or otherwise and the associated cost of modifying the carrier and its facilites to operate them and otherwise.

A rotary wing AWACs system is fine for STOBAR carriers like the Vikramditya and IAC-1 where the IN has purchased KA-31s AEWs systems but for ACCs like IAC-2 that will be larger (65,000+ tons) and that will most likely be CATOBAR configured the fixed0wing AWACS systems like the E-2D is the best option as they can fly higher,further, faster and with a more powerful and capable radar system. The E-2D is the most likely candidate for the IAC-2 sir. The increased cost is no real issue for the IN especially when this system will be procured in a few years when the Indian defence budget will be significantly more than it is today and the addtional cost is more than outweighed by the addtional capability of a E-2D like system.


The reason the UK and Russians use roatary wing assets is because of relatively lower cost and the small(ish) carriers the AEW systems will operate from.

 

[The A-5]

A rotary wing AWACs system is fine for STOBAR carriers like the Vikramditya and IAC-1 where the IN has purchased KA-31s AEWs systems but for ACCs like IAC-2 that will be larger (65,000+ tons) and that will most likely be CATOBAR configured the fixed0wing AWACS systems like the E-2D is the best option as they can fly higher,further, faster and with a more powerful and capable radar system. The E-2D is the most likely candidate for the IAC-2 sir. The increased cost is no real issue for the IN especially when this system will be procured in a few years when the Indian defence budget will be significantly more than it is today and the addtional cost is more than outweighed by the addtional capability of a E-2D like system.


The reason the UK and Russians use roatary wing assets is because of relatively lower cost and the small(ish) carriers the AEW systems will operate from.

I dont think present-day RN/RusN carriers can launch AWACS turboprop/jet aircraft even if they wanted to.