Naval T-50 PAK-FA For Russian Navy's Future Aircraft Carrier

[sancho]

Sir, a bloody nice idea but it's too practical and ingenious for India!

Which actually is the sad part about it, we prefer to keep things as complicated as possible and that for the most silly reasons, when there are so many possibilities out there to do things in a better. But yes, everything needs to be indigenous right?

And also I'm not too sure whether it is smart to add yet ANOTHER fighter type to the IN's FAA. They will be going from 1 type (Sea Harrier)

The one type was a necessity since there were not more STOVL fighters available, not to mention that we simply had only a single carrier. The increase of the fleet and with carriers with different designs, will make that not avoidable, but as you know, I am against the N-LCA anyway and for Migs, or for V22 AEWs, instead of Ka31 and E-2s.
Not to mention that it won't make much difference, since N-LCA/Mig 29K can't be operated from CATOBAR carriers, nor could F18/F35s be operated from STOBAR carriers. So IN will have to look at different support lines for their carriers anyway.

Also I doubt the Yanks would be so accommodating to such requests of modifying their fighters for Indian needs

The fighter actually wouldn't be modified with anything, that wouldn't be offered for the F18SH via the road map upgrade. GE414 EPE engine, touchscreen displays that will be developed by Elbit for the F18SH, EW sensors which also were meant to be Israeli origin, so only because we fund and produce the parts in India, or via an Indo-Israeli JV won't be a major issue. But if we fund the EPE engine development, we obviously want to have critical ToT in return too, which so far was always the difficult part with the US. Even more difficult will be getting GE and Boeing to team up for Kaveri K10, or N-AMCA, the companies might be ok with it, but the US government and the US laws so far restricted such JVs, but they seems to move a bit and we have to see what is possible.

Also is it worth investing in the F-18 "Silent Hornet" to such a high degree if it is only a "stop-gap" system?

Even with the upgrades it should be clearly cheaper than the F35 and with less restrictions, but the main point would be industrial benefits in return. When they offer HALBIT displays for the later upgrades of the USN for example (several 100s of fighters), it definitely would be worth it. From operational point of view, the higher trust, the additional sensors and most importantly CFTs and weapon pods will be crucial to remain capable in future.

Once the PLAN is operating J-31s off their ACCs in the SCS things are going to take a very ugly turn if the IN doesn't have a VLO next-gen carrier fighter.

As I said, the simple arrival of J31 with the possibility to operate it as a carrier fighter, should had made IN to re-think the pointless N-LCA development. They had to start thinking about the future right away and had pushed MoD to realize that as well!

 

[sancho]

@sancho

Couple of things. The French are not assisting Brazil with an SSBN, its an SSN.

Actually they are building Scorpene hulls for them, but assisting them with the development of a nuclear propulsion for subs, which obviously is not limited to SSNs only. The nuclear propulsion is the key and apart from the Russians only the French are providing ToT of it.

As for the French interest in building an aircraft carrier, they are in no financial state to be able to do so. The only European country which, today has the money and the requirement, with an ambition to be a naval power is Russia. The French aircraft carrier was cancelled this year. In fact, they are talking of sharing a carrier with the British.

It's true that they don't have the financial capabilities for the planned PA2 carrier anymore, but that was planed as a CATOBAR nuclear carrier, similar to their current CdG, which is far more costly. And developing and producing a single carrier, is of course far more costly than developing and producing at least 3 (FRA, IND, BRA).
They wanted to share the 2nd British carrier, but the re-design would have been too costly for the brits and now it will remain a STOVL design, which the French can't use.
But as I said, a carrier for France wasn't the issue, but to jointly develop one with DCNS and Brazil. Brazil has the requirement of at least 1 carrier to replace the Sao Paulo, DCNS already is offering them a CATOBAR design to them:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TSO1oBSQm1I/AAAAAAAAAbs/j_Yn898ottw/s1600/PA2.jpg


But Brazil will have difficulties to fund a carrier development on their own. So teaming up with them, by sharing costs and parts of the production, idealy even increase it to a combined NG carrier fighter development would be a win win situation for both countries. They know that too, which is why their defence minister asked for co-developments in the naval and fighter fields during his last visit in India. If France then join and order a conventional carrier with the same design is another issue, but using the expertise of their industry will deninitly be interesting for them.

In fact, what we should do is work with the Russians, acquire the designs from the French (since this is a catobar design) and then build ourselves 2 aircraft carriers and how many ever the Russians want. If this happens, then a navalised FGFA is a very serious possibility.

That won't work, the Russians already have the capability to design carriers, but doesn't have catapults and the French use US once too. Nor to the Russians have the expertise to navalise fighters for catapult operations, which had to be done from the start anyway, unless you want a major re-design of the fighter.

If you want Russia and N-FGFA => it must be a STOBAR carrier
It you want a CATOBAR carrier => it must be wester fighters or a newly developed N-AMCA

I will not even comment on an N-AMCA. Its a pipe dream for now.

When we do it with ADA/DRDO for sure, when wo get a capable partner like Boeing or Dassault, it is possible!

Btw, I am not a fan of the Silent Hornet, but I think it's the best compromise if we have to take a US fighter to get catapults and offers a chance to get US partnership for Kaveri and AMCA.

 

[IND151]

In naval stealth fighters for sure, the question remains what take off system will IAC 2 have, since that decides which fighters can be used.

In my opinion IAC 2 "Vishal" will be CATOBAR/EMALS carrier and not STOBAR.

 

[Echo_419]

That's why I always say that I can't understand why IN is insiting on a low capable N-LCA development, instead of already focusing in a naval AMCA. Or why DRDO has learned nothing out of the difficulties of N-LCA so far, to understand that it's more important to develop a naval NG fighter first and not another one for IAF.
Also that IN don't plan for the worst case, that we don't get catapults, by funding AEW versions of the V22, which could be operated by all their carriers.

Maybe by making LCA
N-LCA they are learning the basics of making a fighter ready for operating from ACs
& after learning from this they can apply the knowledge gained to a Navalised PAK FA
But i still think they should rope in Sukhoi for Navalising PAK FA rather than going alone
That's why Dhruv is mass production & LCA is still waiting for FOC

 

[sancho]

Maybe by making LCA
N-LCA they are learning the basics of making a fighter ready for operating from ACs
& after learning from this they can apply the knowledge gained to a Navalised PAK FA
But i still think they should rope in Sukhoi for Navalising PAK FA rather than going alone
That's why Dhruv is mass production & LCA is still waiting for FOC

They learn the basics, but not about folding wings or how they can put the hook into a stealthy housing, not to mentioned that they chose the wrong partner to get the real useful know how as well. Choosing Mikoyan would had been far better with their experience with STOBAR carrier figthers, but our industry was always looking to the west only during the LCA project, especially to the US which are not even providing know how.

 

[Echo_419]

They learn the basics, but not about folding wings or how they can put the hook into a stealthy housing, not to mentioned that they chose the wrong partner to get the real useful know how as well. Choosing Mikoyan would had been far better with their experience with STOBAR carrier figthers, but our industry was always looking to the west only during the LCA project, especially to the US which are not even providing know how.

Agar Mein GAO ki basha Mein puchu
Toh Asia chutiyapa kyu Kara hai HAL & Industry nie

 

[MohitV]

I heard today that The Russian Navy will receive 36 warships in 2013.

Until 2020 they will have would receive 24 submarines and 54 warships !!!

Russia is going ahead.

Maybe they Invade USA :

Maybe a new WiC will come

world in conflict....the best strategy game i have ever played....

 

[sancho]

Agar Mein GAO ki basha Mein puchu
Toh Asia chutiyapa kyu Kara hai HAL & Industry nie

Translation please.

 

[Echo_419]

Translation please.

Why has HAL done this Fcuk up of choosing western partners & not russian ones

Btw You don't know hindi

 

[sancho]

Why has HAL done this Fcuk up of choosing western partners & not russian ones

Btw You don't know hindi

They didn't DRDO is responsible for the overall project, HAL is "only" the manufacturer.
Sadly no, some Malayalam.