Naval equipment: Pak lags far behind India

[notorious_eagle]

NE,

It all depends on how you look at it.

I personally feel that a defensive navy is highly over-rated word. A navy cannot conduct guerrilla attacks ala army and neither can it conduct raids ala air force without venturing out of its turf (exception subs- which i will come to later).

Before i start, my knowledge of Navy is quite limited so please feel free to correct me if you think i am wrong. Indeed, this is what the Iranians imagined they would do against the US Navy but in return got their a** handed to them during the Iran-Iraq War. I am quite sure this is not what the strategy of PN is but i doubt they can effectively launch guerilla style attacks on IN, maybe fast missile boats armed with latest ASM's might come in quick and fire their missiles.

So what would be a defensive navy in terms of Pakistan ? It would be purely a force which is kept in its own territory and trying its best to keep the by lanes open. However the advantage of a narrow coast becomes a disadvantage here. Your navy will be constricted in a narrow space and with the reluctance to move outside from its comfort zone would become easy pickings for IN once they decide to venture in your territory. India not being an expeditionary force will not mind taking in some losses while trying to enforce this and neither will public opinion change in case of losses.

First of all i believe the conflict between Pakistan and India would not be long, it will be quick but deadly conflict. PN does not has to fight off the IN for a month, all they have to do is fight them off for a week or maybe a couple of days and they achieve their objective. The narrow space can be a disadvantage or an advantage, but its up to PN how they utilize it. From what i can gather, they intend to concentrate their assets and that i believe is definitely an advantage. With the upgrades that PN is going through, i think all the Frigates will have decent self protection and the ability to fire ASM, Harpoon II is definitely icing on the cake.

With regards to exocet armed Mirage III , Mig 29K's and harriers will be specifically tasked to neutralize or counter this threat. And depending purely on land based ASM's will not do you any good if IN only wishes to close the by lanes. They really dont need to move in close, they only have to deter merchant vessles for entering pak waters.

Sir the Mirage III's are specifically assigned for Anti Shipping Roles, to counter the IN Aviation PAF has dedicated an airbase in Karachi PAF Masroor. It will be their task to fight off the MIG 29's and Harriers, Mirage III's will not be used for Air Superiority Roles.

Subs can be an excellent answer given Pakistan's qualitative edge in Agosta, but given the limited number will it be enough ? IN's sub fleet however miserable it is will also move in much before its conventional fleet moves in. So we have two that plays the same game.

That is the biggest problem, while the IN Sub Fleet grows in number PN's Sub Fleet is still static in numbers. It appears that the U214 deal is as good as dead, but a lot of good signs are appearing from China. It appears that PN will purchase either the Upgraded Song or Yuan Class with AIP, anyways just an educated guess but nothing is concrete yet.

IMHO Pakistani navy has to be proactive and engage Indian navy in open waters conducting Hit and run tactics before IN tries to venture into your waters. It will end up buying lot of time and maybe sway battle in PN's favour.

I believe this task will be entrusted to the Agosta's, as they are currently being upgraded i think they will be expected to engage the IN in open waters. Sending out our surface fleet would definitely be a suicide.

 

[ganimi kawa]

Sir the Mirage III's are specifically assigned for Anti Shipping Roles, to counter the IN Aviation PAF has dedicated an airbase in Karachi PAF Masroor. It will be their task to fight off the MIG 29's and Harriers, Mirage III's will not be used for Air Superiority Roles.

Anti shipping role means that they will be carrying a heavy load of AShMs and thus it will not be their task to fight off MiG 29ks and SHars. You will need a few dedicated Air Sup. fighters to escort these mirage IIIs. (If I'm not wrong Masroor AFB also has mirage Vs)

However, India too has a similarly tasked squadron at Jamnagar AFB (located opposite to Masroor AFB). It has Jaguar IM aircrafts optimised for maritime strike (carrying Harpoon II in the future).

They will be escorted by Su 30 mki from Pune.

PN has to have at least a few F16 blk 52s to escort these mirages to have any realistic chance of venturing out into the arabian sea.

Thus, I do not think that the Mirage IIIs at Masroor will have any significant impact on the IN task force in the arabian sea.

That is the biggest problem, while the IN Sub Fleet grows in number PN's Sub Fleet is still static in numbers. It appears that the U214 deal is as good as dead, but a lot of good signs are appearing from China. It appears that PN will purchase either the Upgraded Song or Yuan Class with AIP, anyways just an educated guess but nothing is concrete yet.

PN sub arm is still very potent and will remain so in the near future.

ASW arm of IN will recieve a boost with P8i and Kamorta class induction, that versus the AIP Agosta should be a very tough contest.

I believe this task will be entrusted to the Agosta's, as they are currently being upgraded i think they will be expected to engage the IN in open waters. Sending out our surface fleet would definitely be a suicide.

I agree! The Agosta will be the key fighter in PN lineup!

 

[GORKHALI]

Anti shipping role means that they will be carrying a heavy load of AShMs and thus it will not be their task to fight off MiG 29ks and SHars. You will need a few dedicated Air Sup. fighters to escort these mirage IIIs. (If I'm not wrong Masroor AFB also has mirage Vs)

However, India too has a similarly tasked squadron at Jamnagar AFB (located opposite to Masroor AFB). It has Jaguar IM aircrafts optimised for maritime strike (carrying Harpoon II in the future).

They will be escorted by Su 30 mki from Pune.

PN has to have at least a few F16 blk 52s to escort these mirages to have any realistic chance of venturing out into the arabian sea.

Thus, I do not think that the Mirage IIIs at Masroor will have any significant impact on the IN task force in the arabian sea.






PN sub arm is still very potent and will remain so in the near future.

ASW arm of IN will recieve a boost with P8i and Kamorta class induction, that versus the AIP Agosta should be a very tough contest.





I agree! The Agosta will be the key fighter in PN lineup!

yes!exactly for years to come say 3-4years PN submarine line is the only brahmastra but this doesn't mean indian sub capablity is lame nw. We recently upgraded many of our subs with new capablity and these are capable of firing club CM to surface which is still missing in PN AGOSTA and with the arrival of akula class it'll boost IN sub capablity further.. One more thing su 3omki are already assigned for maritime job stationed in pune and jamnagar.

 

[sancho]

what part of defensive force did you not understand??

I did understand your point and even replied to it:

As you can see, IN is already inducting vessels with latest designs, systems and very powerful armament, while even increasing the numerical superiority!
Even if we take a defensive role for PN only, the only real threat to IN are the Agosta subs with AIP propulsions, while the surface fleet can easily be countered. PN will mainly be dependent on long range shore based air support to keep IN away from Pakistans coast lines.

The bottom line is, that PN might modernise it's capabilities, but is not able to close the gap, it's even the other way around! IN will increase the numerical and technological gap even more.

When you compare PA to IA, PAF to IAF and PN to IN, PN is clearly the force that shows the biggest disadvantge against it's counterpart. That's even understandable, because the navy is simply not that important for Pakistan like it is for India.

Indeed, at the rate the IN is progressing its simply exceptional. But that being said, the question is still can the IN come into our waters and blockade them? Out in the open water engaging IN would be suicide because they would simply massacre the PN. But that is not what PN intends to do, they intend to stay in our waters and fight the IN from there. Our coastline is around 290 miles, this gives us the advantage of concentrating our naval based assets backed up by 12 Mirages armed with Exocets and dozens of other land based assets that are capable of firing ASM's. So its quite easy to say that IN can blockade Pakistan, but things are not as black and white as you assume. If PN manages to thwart an attack from the IN and manages to keep the waters open, thats a victory for Pakistan.

Hi, that's that's what I said!
PN is not able to defend Pakistans coastal lines by itself, and will be dependent on shore based air support. Only the Agosta subs will be able to attack IN, but the surface vessels will try to stay away from a fight.

A sea blockade of Pakistan imo will be possible when the new carriers and carriergroup are operational. They will not come close enough to be a target for fighters or missiles, but use the range of IN Mig 29K and also IAF Jaguar IM with Harpoon, or by then even MKI with Brahmos to make the first hits. When the costal defense is weaken, or even gone, PN don't have a chance anymore.
However, it will be interesting to see what role China will play in such a scenario, especially with Gwadar in mind.


I am not saying all these to degrade PN, but the superiority of IN should be obvious at least against PN. When it comes to IN vs PLAN, the whole game will be totally different again.

 

[Laughing Buddha]

India's Second ATV

Reactor

 

[Alphatech]

India's Second ATV

Reactor

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I am sorry to inform you that the pics have nothing to do with the ATV project.

The first one is an Akula class submarine being built at the Amur Shipbuilding Plant in Russia.

The second picture shows the reactor core of the Swiss CROCUS Low Enriched Uranium Research Reactor.

The ATV's pics are really hard to find and i don't think any photographs of the reactor core have ever been released.