NAVAL CHIEF INAUGURATES NAVAL STRATEGIC FORCE HEADQUARTERS

[Peregrine]

Long range SLBM would be the best option.

 

[PakShaheen79]

It was not just about the position of PN but according to P Shamim Sahab the China had reservations about selling their most latest conventional sub to Pakistan due to our close relations with USA.

True but my question is still there. If we dont have any second striek platform then what is purpose of having a HQ of NSFC?

 

[Areesh]

True but my question is still there. If we dont have any second striek platform then what is purpose of having a HQ of NSFC?

Well Yes "apparently" we don't have a platform. But the purpose might be

1 Developing second strike capability for present platforms we have(Augusta 90b, F22p)
2 Developing second strike capability for future platforms we might have(Qing class sub, Nuke sub)

This part of this press release says a lot.

The Force, which is the custodian of the nation’s 2nd strike capability, will strengthen Pakistan’s policy of Credible Minimum Deterrence and ensure regional stability.

 

[The Deterrent]

Rumor has it, it was not successful initially

Yes, failed twice.

 

[SQ8]

Its a "shell" department.. like a shell company..
It has an office, people under it.. and all that.. but no actual assets.
Just a another post.. another drain in the pipe for now.
The assets are yet to come of age.

 

[The Deterrent]

this also has another implication.. only the A90Bs would be capable enough to launch any kind of cruise missile as of now.. Qings are still short of a couple of years to being inducted.. but the launch tubes of A90Bs were too small for a cruise missile the size of babur.. that leaves 2 assumptions..

1.) the size of babur has been reduced to fit inside the tube but then why would a canister be required to launch a cruise missile in this case anyway?? Do exocets require a canister launch system as they can be launched from the tubes.. and reducing the size of the missile would decrease the size of the warhead.. would a cruise missile with a warhead the size of Nasr be enough for the operational envelop as Nasr is supposed to be a battlefield nuke..

2.) if the size remains the same and the canister launch system is not intended for torpedo tubes, then that means that the A90Bs have been modified to launch a cruise missile from a vertically placed canister launch system..

Err, no...you are misunderstanding the "Canister"...

The canister is just an independent platform for testing i.e. no Submarine is involved. The Canister is submerged and the missile is launched Horizontally, acting like a Torpedo Tube.

1. The size is the same (most probably). Now if the Torpedo Tubes of Agosta-90B are smaller (which I don't know for sure), then perhaps the Babur SLCM will be fielded on the Qings. Until then, it will be tested through the canister system.

2. No, Babur SLCM is being configured to be launched through the torpedo tubes of a Submarine (i.e. horizontally) for now.

 

[regular]

Well Yes "apparently" we don't have a platform. But the purpose might be

1 Developing second strike capability for present platforms we have(Augusta 90b, F22p)
2 Developing second strike capability for future platforms we might have(Qing class sub, Nuke sub)

Yes! I guess these statements gives the true picture of our current second strike platform status.....

 

[JunaidP]

Err, no...you are misunderstanding the "Canister"...

The canister is just an independent platform for testing i.e. no Submarine is involved. The Canister is submerged and the missile is launched Horizontally, acting like a Torpedo Tube.

1. The size is the same (most probably). Now if the Torpedo Tubes of Agosta-90B are smaller (which I don't know for sure), then perhaps the Babur SLCM will be fielded on the Qings. Until then, it will be tested through the canister system.

2. No, Babur SLCM is being configured to be launched through the torpedo tubes of a Submarine (i.e. horizontally) for now.

thanks for clearing that up.. well wikipedia may not be a good source but it does state that the A90Bs carry the black shark torpedo in its arsenal.. and its dimensions match those of babur..

Black Shark:
length = 6300mm = 6.3m
diameter = 533mm = 0.533m

Babur:
length = 6.25m
diameter = 0.52m

so that removes my misconception regarding babur being able to fit inside the A90Bs.. the rumor was probably due to the fact that the Israelis got their dolphins modified to house 650mm torpedo tubes to fire SLCMs..

 

[The Deterrent]

thanks for clearing that up.. well wikipedia may not be a good source but it does state that the A90Bs carry the black shark torpedo in its arsenal.. and its dimensions match those of babur..

Black Shark:
length = 6300mm = 6.3m
diameter = 533mm = 0.533m

Babur:
length = 6.25m
diameter = 0.52m

so that removes my misconception regarding babur being able to fit inside the A90Bs.. the rumor was probably due to the fact that the Israelis got their dolphins modified to house 650mm torpedo tubes to fire SLCMs..

Well then Pakistan Navy can field Babur SLCMs on Agosta-90Bs...but only after a couple of successful trials from the canister platform.

 

[Liquidmetal]

The rumours on the net are:

1) Pakistan is very serious about a naval delivery system and platorms hence the NSFC's own headquarters to oversee the navy's nuclear reponsibility.

2) Pakistan has developed a sub based nuclear reactor and is working on the subsystems.

3) That canister based Babur firing has taken place but these may have failed, but the program is still ongoing.

4) That the Babur and canister can fit and be fired from the 90Bs 533mm torpedo tubes once the technology has been pefected.

5) That a Tomahawk missile can also be fired from a 533mm torpedo tubes shows that the system is in place elsewhere in the world and therefore this is doable and we will succeed.

6) The Qings being 4000 tons will be better suited to this role.

7) However, it has gone annoyingly quiet on the sub acquisition front.

 

[Rafi]

There has been no failure of SL-Babur, you heard it from me. Different tests have different parameters.

 

[Liquidmetal]

There has been no failure of SL-Babur, you heard it from me. Different tests have different parameters.

Sorry, Rafi what I have written are rumours and are nether my opinions or have any evidence either way. I am just summarising what I have read elsewhere and seems to be either an opinion or some inside knowledge of some heavy weight people like Munir, H Khan, PShamim, yourself etc.

It is not possible at the moment to say what is fact or fiction (and in my opinion PK navy is correct in keeping things secret).

However, what I wanted to do was highlight to fellow members that sometimes there is no smoke without fire and hence we may have gone much further down the 2nd strike capability then we had imagined. This is very positive and even if there was failure, someone said you learn more your failures than success hence it is not a failure and even the US fails all the time otherwise there would not have been any shuttle crashes etc.

The other thing is that this highlights that our engineers and defence experts are very busy.

Busy making sure we give our neighbour more than heartburn. Ha.

 

[v9s]

Pakistan Acknowledges Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan has acknowledged the existence of a sea-based nuclear deterrent with the recent inauguration of the Headquarters of the Naval Strategic Force Command (NSFC) by the head of the Navy, Adm. Asif Sandhila.

A May 19 press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations stated the NSFC “will perform a pivotal role in development and employment of the Naval Strategic Force,” and was “the custodian of the nation’s 2nd strike capability.”

Mansoor Ahmed, lecturer at Quaid-e-Azam University’s Department of Defence and Strategic Studies, and who specializes in Pakistan’s nuclear and missile programs, said this is all but specific confirmation of the widely speculated submarine-launched variant of the Babur/HATF-VII (Vengeance-VII) cruise missile.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said Pakistan has been working on its sea-based deterrent for some time.

“When the Babur was first revealed in 2005, it was claimed that it is mainly designed to be deployed from submarines. There was at least that speculation,” he said.

The Navy “has pretty good experience in using similar systems, for example, both submarine-launched Harpoon and Exocet use a similar system, and [the Navy] has operated both for a long time.”

Shabbir speculates that the launch method may be similar to the UGM-84 Harpoon’s method of being fired from torpedo tubes.

However, other analysts are not so certain the Navy can afford to undertake the responsibility of the nation’s second-strike capability.

Former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad Brian Cloughley said the size of Pakistan’s submarine force is too small to carry out this task.

“Pakistan’s current submarine fleet is not adequate in numbers [although well-trained] to be able to undertake detection and effective interdiction of the Indian fleet, given its size — which is increasing, even if slowly,” he said.

Currently, Pakistan’s submarine flotilla comprises two refurbished 1970s-era Agosta-70s and three 1990s-era Agosta-90B submarines. The latter are equipped with air independent propulsion (AIP) or are in the process of being retrofitted with the AIP module, and incrementally entered service from 1999.

Cloughley said interdiction of India’s fleet “must remain [the Navy’s] first priority,” and considers “conversion of the present assets to take Babur not only costly but a most regrettable diversion of budget allocation.”

“I would go so far as to say that, in present circumstances, it would be a grave error if such a program were to go ahead,” he added.

The Navy, however, has a requirement for new submarines and wants to increase their number. The Agosta-90B design has been superseded twice, once by the DCNI Scorpene, and briefly by a paper design called the Marlin before it was absorbed into the Scorpene family.

There is a confirmed requirement for 12 to 14 submarines to meet Navy expansion plans. This would allow for a constant war patrol of at least one deterrent-tasked submarine, leaving other submarines to carry out more traditional tasks.

However, Cloughley is still certain that Pakistan does not require such a capability.

“[Pakistan] has plenty of nuclear-capable SSMs and strike aircraft, and does not need a Navy-oriented second-strike capability,” he said.

Pakistan Acknowledges Sea-Based Nuclear Deterrent | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[Liquidmetal]

I don't agree with Brian Cloughley who is a respected pro PK defence analyst. In my opinion we must have a 2nd strike nuckear capability under the oceans. Although we must raise our sub squadron levels to the levels we had in the 70s and 80s not the small amount of 5 although the AIP equipped 90Bs are the best conventional subs in our region.

I feel with the state of the art sub building yard we had acquired from the french it was criminal for our governments to have allowed for the skill base we had so painstakingly obtained to rot away. It is time we started to build subs again and Brian is correct we need them in numbers 19/20 subs would be nice. Hence I think the Yuan/Qings are our best options.

The article above is written by Usman Ansari who is a great writer and has some good sources.

 

[Don Jaguar]

Good news congratz to all fellows.