NATO Attacks Pakistani Check-post

[Xeric]

"...please get this in your heads that your so called 'aid is for the ruling elite so they can watch out for your interests and do all your dirty work."

No, Abu Basit. You get it in YOUR HEAD that there's not a damned thing you can do to stop that aid. Our choice. Our decision. Hopefully my government will decide trying to help those incapable of helping themselves is a waste of money and effort.

Want to stop it though? Throw out your government, party leaders and ruling military clique.

THAT's something Pakistanis can do. Then, take it one step further and declare an Islamic state at war with Afghanistan and America.

Do the right and manly thing instead of sitting behind a computer wailing about America using the Pakistani reality to protect our interests. Change that reality.

Or...commit to democracy, await elections and do a MUCH better job of identifying real candidates and electing them.

Either way your fault if you don't care enough to change the prevailing paradigm.

Thanks.

Agreed, except that we would also like that while we make this transition, you should also keep you fat nose out of the process, for good.

 

[salmakh84]

Sorry, this is (also off topic). But i've noticed, threads on this forum become WAY TOO LONG to keep up with!! Many many a times we all go off topic (lols, like my post :S)

or maybe this forum is very popular

 

[Xeric]

They'd be wrong, of course. It's in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
Hmm..now that's rude.

i think you missed to count the $300 million that the GoP have so far received in the garb of KL Bill against the promised 1.25+1.25+1.25 B USD over the past 3 years.

Also, a total $ 13.5 B that the Pakistan has received in the past decade under the head of CSF (out of which only $ 1.8 B were received by the Army, as $ 10.8 B was earmarked for the Army alone but it was shown in consultation with the Army that it should say it has received $ 6.98 B, the remaining $ 5.18 B has gone to support our National Budget), now though i dont blame you or your govt for the above arrangement, but then thankyou for the 13.5 B USD against the loss of approx $ 36 B since we have entered in this fcuking GWoT of yours. You have been quite generous.



You can't and, worse, won't pacify the afghan "tribes" on your own land. My suspicion is that the Pakistani army leadership would pocket most of the money while assisting the pashtun-dominated Afghan taliban in pacifying the non-pashtu tribes of Afghanistan.

Isn't that the plan anyway?

$36B a year, btw, exceeds your nat'l gross exports by a good $10B. That's a bit rich for my blood given what little you'd actually accomplish.

We alone have achieved a way more than what you and the consortium of nation in Afg have accomplished in the past decade. Just because you made your borders saved but made the life dangerous for the entire remainder for world doesnt mean that you have accomplished everything. Thankyou for bringing terrorism to our shores. we have been fighting in Kashmir since the last 30 years, but we never had a suicide attack there or in mainland Pakistan, only that now we have one every second day since the damn 9/11 and since you came charging into Afg and screwed up the entire region.

You know what, you can shove those 300 million and the 13. 5 billion up your arse and get the fcuk out of here.

Now hurry up, narrate me the aid (military and civilian), the IMET Ps, the weaponry etc the mighty Yankistan has provided us with since our inception, and show us how stupid you are to see that the aid came with a price - the price we paid when we supported you against the Soviets and the price that we pay now!!

 

[FaujHistorian]

......
How about a break there? Pakistan could quit charging tariffs on the transport of supplies across its land. That would reduce costs considerably, especially since auditing those charges is a tenuous proposition at best.
......

I won't get into a shoving match here. Our hands are full fighting the Jihadi and Taliblees sympathizers.

Your response clearly shows that there are many Americans who are stereotyping Paks, and thus utterly failing to differentiate a friend from a foe. And mind you this is the first step of intellectual defeat that occurs well before physical / military defeat. I hope that never happens, because a NATO defeat in Afghanistan will probably bad for US/EU, but it will be catastrophic for Pakistan.

Your comment about duties and terrifs for NATO point to your lack of knowledge about the region.

FYI, Pakistan is the ONLY country that has ZERO duty on imported goods destined to Afghanistan. This is again based on long history and nothing to do with present day NATO ops in Afghanistan.

Check out with other neighbors of Afghanistan and let me know if anyone would offer ZERO import duties for the goods bound for Afghanistan. And even if they do, see how quickly they allow NATO supplies through their areas while beating the TOTAL cost to NATO for importing such goods.

As I said earlier, knowing history of a region is the key to success in future.

Happy reading!

................
$36B a year, btw, exceeds your nat'l gross exports by a good $10B. That's a bit rich for my blood given what little you'd actually accomplish.

.....

off course. Let me add here that $36 billion is more than OUR f ing national budget every year. And hence the "motivation" for the change in the "direction" for the leftie bureaucrats and businessmen.

However if you just look at this figure, it would be akin to being "penny wise", and what do they say? pound foolish!

In simple arithmetic, American senators should be worried about saving a net amount of $100 billion a year, instead of crying about paltry sum (in comparison to 100) of $2 billion.

You say corruption in Pakistan. I agree. But hey, the same Pak army got the job done (even while pocketing a percentage) when Commies were about to digest the whole of Afghanistan.

As I said before, focusing on small amount and losing $100's of billions is not something an intellectual like yourself should suggest.


Peace.

 

[DelhiDareDevil]

FYI, Pakistan is the ONLY country that has ZERO duty on imported goods destined to Afghanistan. This is again based on long history and nothing to do with present day NATO ops in Afghanistan.
.

Do you know the duty charged for China ?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Do you know the duty charged for China ?

Not sure why are you asking this question. It has nothing do with this thread. Did you have your chai today?

Since when China is land locked country being run by NATO?

peace.

p.s. And I thought "Delhi walas, living in UK" are the smartest of the smart lot

 

[S-2]

"...So what needs to be done then? The only thing that can work is stabilizing Afghanistan were all major ethnic groups share power, backed by international help. And no more proxy wars, especially between India and Pakistan, in Afghanistan..."

This is correct if near impossible. Little else can work. It, unlike nearly all else however, is a win-win.

"...And absolutely no tolerance of Al-Qaida. They need to get the hell of out of this region."

I'd think that all would concur.

"...PS. You kid yourself if you think that only Americans enjoy 'freedom' of expression..."

Sure wouldn't suggest that nor understand where I indicated such. Freedom of the press, right to peacefully assemble and freedom of expression are common enough in certain regions.

Far less common in others.

 

[S-2]

"...Your comment about duties and terrifs for NATO point to your lack of knowledge about the region..."

Not so. Our transportation costs invoiced across Pakistani highways absorb a considerable surcharge for supposed road repair.

"...Your response clearly shows that there are many Americans who are stereotyping Paks, and thus utterly failing to differentiate a friend from a foe. And mind you this is the first step of intellectual defeat that occurs well before physical / military defeat. I hope that never happens, because a NATO defeat in Afghanistan will probably bad for US/EU, but it will be catastrophic for Pakistan..."

Pakistan is no friend where it promotes the interests of the pashtun Afghan taliban at the expense of all other ethnicities within Afghanistan. It is no stereotype to suggest that Pakistan has done little to alleviate the enmity existing between these other ethnic groups and itself.

We've been lectured incessantly by supposed regional experts from Pakistan regarding your "in-depth knowledge" of the region. If you, FaujHistorian, are a personal example of such then our views are diametrically-opposed. Not just your's and mine but your's and the rest of mankind.

You've made no effort at accomodation with the northern alliance yet insist on the need for such with the Afghan Pashtun Taliban. There is, therefore, no plurality to your Afghan perspective. This will require civil war to redress.

"However if you just look at this figure, it would be akin to being "penny wise", and what do they say? pound foolish!

In simple arithmetic, American senators should be worried about saving a net amount of $100 billion a year, instead of crying about paltry sum (in comparison to 100) of $2 billion."

Utterly foolish. You ask that we underwrite your army's conquest of Afghanistan while indicating your efforts would be directed at the Northern Alliance.

No doubt. That's $36B wasted dollars supporting an enterprise to which we're adamantly opposed. Moreover, you gloss over the reality that you won't fight the Afghan taliban already escounced on your lands. Of course not. You intend to place them in power again.

We don't wish that. The rest of the world doesn't wish that. The afghan people don't wish that.

Only Pakistan.

Maybe you should approach your "all-weather" friends.

"...the same Pak army got the job done (even while pocketing a percentage) when Commies were about to digest the whole of Afghanistan..."

Oh really?

I'd swear there's a dead afghan muj or two in that mix. That's some real revisionist history in which you're engaged.













`

 

[FaujHistorian]

OK.

Looks like you are here with an axe to grind. Be my guest!

I thought you wanted serious discussion and "out of the box" exchange of ideas. Apparently not so.

"...Your comment about duties and terrifs for NATO point to your lack of knowledge about the region..."

Not so. Our transportation costs invoiced across Pakistani highways absorb a considerable surcharge for supposed road repair.......

I mentioned that NATO/Afghanistan have ZERO import duty. Instead of accepting this simple fact, you go off on a tangent about road repairs.

As I said earlier, like so many anti Pak-army posters, you seems to have an axe to grind.

......... In simple arithmetic, American senators should be worried about saving a net amount of $100 billion a year, instead of crying about paltry sum (in comparison to 100) of $2 billion."

....You ask that we underwrite your army's conquest of Afghanistan .......

See you have no idea about the difference between police action by NATO/ Pak army / Allies vs. occupation.

Truly you are talking like a Talib now about the conquest thingy. Who wants to conquer the dung heap called Afghanistan. You think NATO is in Afghanistan to conquer it? Your notion of "conquest" is funny at best.

Your point about supporting one Afghan faction over the other is "deeply flawed" as well. What is NATO doing right now? Or what we all did back during Commie invasion.

Read some history brother read! (before accusing a fauj "Historian" for revision thingy )

You are sounding more and more like a Talib or AQ - Sadly!

 

[unicorn]

^^^^

Looks like you are here with an axe to grind. Be my guest!

I knew this would happen after few posts.Knowing one thing is different and using it is another.Hope you have learn your lesson

peace

 

[S-2]

"OK.

Looks like you are here with an axe to grind. Be my guest!"

I've been "here" since December 2007 and hardly with an "axe" to grind.

"I thought you wanted serious discussion and "out of the box" exchange of ideas. Apparently not so."

Paying the Pakistani army $36B to "...see how quickly Pak army will pacify Afghan tribes..." is hardly serious. The Pakistani Army would easily unite the Afghan people...against it.

"...I mentioned that NATO/Afghanistan have ZERO import duty. Instead of accepting this simple fact, you go off on a tangent about road repairs..."

Not a tangent-a clarification.

"...As I said earlier, like so many anti Pak-army posters, you seems to have an axe to grind..."

I don't wear a moniker making me their semi-official historian either. Your view is hardly unbiased.

"...See you have no idea about the difference between police action by NATO/ Pak army / Allies vs. occupation..."

What do you think the Pakistani army would be doing by itself inside Afghanistan were matters to be as suggested by you?

"...Truly you are talking like a Talib now about the conquest thingy."

Fat chance.

"...Who wants to conquer the dung heap called Afghanistan..."

The Afghan taliban whom are harbored on Pakistani lands.

"...You think NATO is in Afghanistan to conquer it? Your notion of "conquest" is funny at best..."

If you ask a question of me, don't follow it with my presumed answer. That's hardly a basis for a "serious discussion". America is there along with NATO by mandate of the U.N.

"...Your point about supporting one Afghan faction over the other is "deeply flawed" as well. What is NATO doing right now?..."

Promoting a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic state...or, at least trying to in spite of the efforts of the Afghan taliban and their masters.

"...Or what we all did back during Commie invasion..."

I don't know what Pakistan's agenda was during the Afghan-Soviet war beyond self-preservation and removal of the Soviet Union. America's motivations largely rested upon removing the Soviet presence from Afghanistan, preserving Pakistani sovereignty and neutering an anticipated Soviet desire for Indian Ocean access.

"...Read some history brother read! (before accusing a fauj "Historian" for revision thingy )..."

I've read a bit. I've B.A.s in History and Political Science from the University Of Wisconsin. Suggesting that the Pakistani army single-handedly turned back the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan is highly revisionist to my understanding-

"...the same Pak army got the job done (even while pocketing a percentage) when Commies were about to digest the whole of Afghanistan..."

The above is skewed and needlessly reeking of unjustified bravado. There were many nations involved keeping both the Soviet Union and India at bay.

"...You are sounding more and more like a Talib or AQ - Sadly!"

I'm not "...sounding..." like anything. I write. Reasonably carefully for the most part though not always. Take care your unwarranted accusation. I've 4000 posts here, many suggesting the LAST thing I might be is taliban or A.Q.

I've strong reason to believe the Pakistani military have retained the Afghan taliban as a proxy weapon against the Government of Afghanistan. To that end, the Pakistani military would be opposing the efforts of the U.N. and NATO towards Afghanistan's stabilization and development. The Afghan taliban are no pathway to such although are certainly construed as a vehicle of Afghan domination for GHQ, Rawalpindi.

You either agree with my assessment and support the efforts of the Pakistani military or you don't agree with my assessment. If disagreeing then you've no answer to explain the seeming somnolence and lethargy displayed by the Pakistani army to the violation of Pakistani sovereignty by Afghan taliban entities encamped upon your lands for nearly ten years since the collapse of the taliban regime in Afghanistan.

That would be the basis for our dispute. It is, invariably, the basis for my dispute with nearly every Pakistani member of this board. Note carefully, please, I wrote "nearly". Not all are so willfully blind to the two-faced perspectives of sovereign rights that are so casually slung about here. Some actually recognize the Pakistan's woeful failure to exercise their sovereign OBLIGATIONS to restoring their nation's integrity by LONG-AGO ejecting the Afghan taliban and their Haqqani associates from Pakistani lands.

You can't have it both ways, FaujHistorian, and expect others to turn a blind eye.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Promoting a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic state...or, at least trying to in spite of the efforts of the Afghan taliban and their masters.

ahh, but you miss the big picture by failing to ask why the taleban are more popular and widespread now than they were a few years ago (even around the time your former president declared "victory" in the 'other' war theater --for whatever that was worth)

it seems the US made the same screw-up two times.


You alienated the Baathists in Iraq, some who were willing to work with their opponents for a stable and peaceful country (in the Iraqi context, everything is relative)

You alienated the Pakhtuns in Afghanistan by dogmatically clinging to other ethnic groups which had as much blood on their hands as groups like the taleban did. Much to your own detriment.


rest is self explanatory....






regards









p.s. BBC NEWS | South Asia | Afghanistan's alienated Pashtuns


2003 report!

 

[S-2]

"ahh, but you miss the big picture by failing to ask why the taleban are more popular and widespread now than they were a few years ago..."

All the way up to 12% in the Dec. 2010 ABC/BBC/ARD polls that I've seen. Of course, your polls are so much more informative.

"...You alienated the Baathists in Iraq, some who were willing to work with their opponents for a stable and peaceful country (in the Iraqi context, everything is relative)..."

Some Nazis were willing to turn a new leaf too. They even came to serve in the Bundeswehr...after serving their sentences. Of course, the party had to go.

This is about pashtuns in Afghanistan though. There you show some real cultural misunderstandings. Now, of course, there are pashtun provincial governors and district chairmen scattered throughout Helmand and Kandahar.

Bringing pashtuns into the GoA, however, is a two-way street. As much as Americans wish them there, they've got to also wish to be there. I'm sure, Abu Zolfiqar, you can imagine the pressures applied through night letters about pashtuns joining the army, government, translators, etc.

Doing so, among other things, might mean they'd be criticized here at def.pk as "American puppets". That, of course, would be the least of their worries.

Still, it's fair to say that any tribal-based society like Iraq, Afghanistan or even Pakistan harbors deep suspicions of favoritism shown to other tribes and ethnicities. Not a week seems to go by when there isn't a tribal spat in FATAville. You should know that better than most. Reconciliation won't come easy anywhere across south/central asia or the mid east where these traditions still hold some (considerable) sway.

 

[Mav3rick]

"...Freedom, that notion that you have forgotten, is something that is becoming dearer and dearer to us now."

Hopefully it'll become a dear reality to those thousands of Pakistani disappeared languishing in your prisons.

There's a reason we've rendited to Pakistan. No prisons are more brutal. No citizenry less safe from being whisked off the street. A fact of life to which your countrymen are so comfortable that during this arab spring where thousands of arabs have taken to the streets demanding their basic civil rights there's been not a peep from within Pakistan against your militar...errr, sorry (slip of the phrase) government.

Travelling to the STATES again anytime soon, Asim? Notice how many of your fellow citizens here CHOOSE to languish in our society making a living from our broke economy?

Can you imagine were I to emigrate to Pakistan and publically denounce your government as A.M. and others here do from within America? A white guy in Pakistan-by choice?! That, by itself, says it all. Not wanted? We'd be killed. Just that fcukin' simple. You guys would be buying tickets to be the first to whack a yank on your street.

Ain't happenin' to those brothers and sisters of your's in the west. If so, they'd leave-in droves.

So STFU. You're welcome to question whether we landed on the moon, twin towers blew up from terrorist-directed airliners, OBL killed by U.S. Navy SEALs penetrating your airspace and leaving undetected. That's your business but goes far to explain why you're PAKISTAN...and America's sending CHALLENGER into space with a $2B physics experiment.

Post like the one above are so typically foolish and arrogant! You did not build up your economy (which is under $15tn debt, isn't it?) overnight, neither was your war capacity built in a few years.......it did not even take you a few decades but a few centuries to get to this point where you are today!

Ever bother to read your own history? Ever wonder what your forefathers were doing when your country was 60 years old? You'd be amazed at how they were cutting each other's throats!

But you were so damn lucky even then......you did not have a friend like the US to 'help' your democracy on its terms! Perhaps you spell friend without an r cause that would make more sense about your attitude.

 

[Mav3rick]

Bad comparisons Mr. dad of Zulfiqar.

You don't fire at someone, if you don't have a 5 level-deep plan to counter the response to your fire.

Here is a scenario.

-- Pak post fires at NATO helicopter
-- Helicopter fires back.

--- Now what? What is your smart-elikki plan? f@rt?

or perhaps lob some fire-crackers at NATO bases? and if they respond then what?

I urge you to use brain cells before supporting a hostile action (or reaction).


peace.

What process of alliance do you not understand? You want our military check post soldiers to secure their weapons and stay put when fired upon? How hard is it to bring these helis down with ANZA or even an RPG? According to my understanding this is a very simple process, if you enter Pakistani air space the forces that are supposed to 'guard' and 'prevent' the intrusion fire warning shots to warn the 'friendly bird' of it's intrusion but the moment that 'friendly bird' chooses to fire at our border security they become terrorists who should be shot down.