Naswarville

[SQ8]

@Oscar Sir in addition to the previous question- how suitable do you think the V-22 AEW variant will be for the IN's CBG?

Quite suitable actually, the V-22 is a really good platform once you get past the muddy record.
Although the IN may and should decide to stick to the KA-31 for commonality and logistical reasons.

 

[Dillinger]

Quite suitable actually, the V-22 is a really good platform once you get past the muddy record.
Although the IN may and should decide to stick to the KA-31 for commonality and logistical reasons.

What of the previous question regarding the PAF sir. Let me know when my persistent questions begin to bother you- I shall desist.

The V-22 could operate even from the IAC-1 Vikrant too right? As such how would it compare in performance to the E-2 Hawkeye?

 

[SQ8]

You had previously stated that the PAF is likely to last 2-3 weeks in a conflict with the IAF and obviously with the Indian armed forces as an extension. Was that statement based upon the current capabilities of the IAF or did you take the planned/upcoming/slated acquisitions into consideration? What would be the options/tactics/strategies that the PAF can employ to prolong said conflict while being able to last longer and inflict greater damage? In what areas does the IAF really have an advantage that such a scenario has arisen in the first place? IF the PAF were to acquire the J-10Bs on an expedited basis despite all its financial issues how would that affect the equation as such? Are their any possible acquisitions on the PAF's part which are within its means that can balance the situation out? In your opinion what is the weakest link as far as the IAF is concerned? How do you think that the IAF would actually fare in a "two front war" disregarding the usual bravado of my compatriots?[/B

1. The offensive punch statement I think was self explanatory.. i.e based on as is right now..and I gave the comments on how that equation will change with IAF acquiring new assets.
My other post here might answer some of those queries.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/159026-paf-can-counter-india-s-new-war-doctrine-says-air-chief-7.html#post2601102
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/39487-most-india-safe-paf-deep-strikes-5.html#post2232527
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/78981-best-bvr-capable-fighter-south-asia-10.html#post1254367

The weakest link in the IAF is in my view ironically touted as its strongest; Which are the MKIs. Specifically because they have been the object of much attention and more importantly because in a two front war a major adversary knows quite a bit about the system and its ins and outs. To at least a certain extent anyway that IAF MKI force will have to adapt very different tactics, and improve on its sortie rate to be wholly effective in the war. The same Pakistan's F-16s are going to be its strongest and weakest link in such a war.

If in case a two front war does break out, the IAF will fare well in its western objectives but find itself lacking in the north. First because it does not know the adversary in the north as it does to the west and second, because the adversary in the north is protected(as is the IAF) by terrain and so that particular front will be a slow rolling with either intense air and ground battles or none at all.

 

[Dillinger]

1. The offensive punch statement I think was self explanatory.. i.e based on as is right now..and I gave the comments on how that equation will change with IAF acquiring new assets.
My other post here might answer some of those queries.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/159026-paf-can-counter-india-s-new-war-doctrine-says-air-chief-7.html#post2601102
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/39487-most-india-safe-paf-deep-strikes-5.html#post2232527
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/78981-best-bvr-capable-fighter-south-asia-10.html#post1254367

The weakest link in the IAF is in my view ironically touted as its strongest; Which are the MKIs. Specifically because they have been the object of much attention and more importantly because in a two front war a major adversary knows quite a bit about the system and its ins and outs. To at least a certain extent anyway that IAF MKI force will have to adapt very different tactics, and improve on its sortie rate to be wholly effective in the war. The same Pakistan's F-16s are going to be its strongest and weakest link in such a war.

If in case a two front war does break out, the IAF will fare well in its western objectives but find itself lacking in the north. First because it does not know the adversary in the north as it does to the west and second, because the adversary in the north is protected(as is the IAF) by terrain and so that particular front will be a slow rolling with either intense air and ground battles or none at all.

Gratitude, for the answers and the patience.
Mostly its doomsday scenarios which are propagated when a two front war is talked of. Will we be able to hold our own or will the momentum that will build up be too much for us?

 

[SQ8]

Gratitude, for the answers and the patience.
Mostly its doomsday scenarios which are propagated when a two front war is talked of. Will we be able to hold our own or will the momentum that will build up be too much for us?

India has less to worry about from the North, and the doomsday is well.. feces. India is too deep and too big to be under any doomsday. Even against a small conflict against Pakistan India will prevail easy.
That being said, prevailing is different from surviving unscathed..and compared to the North where all India has is basically Junk land.. and nothing of actual importance. India has much more to lose in a conflict to its west. Both in a two front or one front, India will not disappear or anything of that sort; what will happen thought is that all the hard built Indian economy and progress will take a massive hit. Businesses will disappear, infrastructure may be hit and the economy will definitely go back 5-10 years. That hit on the economy will effect civil life and its effect is what will wear India down. So the whole concept of India emerging as a true competetitor to China or even otherwise goes down the drain for another while.


If you really think of it.. WHO stands to prosper most from a devastated Indian and Chinese economy due to war? Who?
Infact, who truly prosper from the conflicts between India and Pakistan? Where do the millions of dollars in defense spending really go to?
Whose economy will then edge ahead if India and China go bust trying to out do each other?
Perhaps a certain conspiracy theory might not go unnoticed here.

 

[Armstrong]

1. The offensive punch statement I think was self explanatory.. i.e based on as is right now..and I gave the comments on how that equation will change with IAF acquiring new assets.
My other post here might answer some of those queries.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/159026-paf-can-counter-india-s-new-war-doctrine-says-air-chief-7.html#post2601102
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/39487-most-india-safe-paf-deep-strikes-5.html#post2232527
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/78981-best-bvr-capable-fighter-south-asia-10.html#post1254367

The weakest link in the IAF is in my view ironically touted as its strongest; Which are the MKIs. Specifically because they have been the object of much attention and more importantly because in a two front war a major adversary knows quite a bit about the system and its ins and outs. To at least a certain extent anyway that IAF MKI force will have to adapt very different tactics, and improve on its sortie rate to be wholly effective in the war. The same Pakistan's F-16s are going to be its strongest and weakest link in such a war.

If in case a two front war does break out, the IAF will fare well in its western objectives but find itself lacking in the north. First because it does not know the adversary in the north as it does to the west and second, because the adversary in the north is protected(as is the IAF) by terrain and so that particular front will be a slow rolling with either intense air and ground battles or none at all.

Your optimism from those days compared to now seems to have gone down the drain !

Going through those threads, you don't seem half as sullen as you do now ! Back then it seems as if the PAF had a fighting chance of perhaps stealing a thrust to the IAF's proverbial soft-underbelly to make them think a dozen times before going to war but now your posts suggest that the PAF would be lucky to even parry most of what is thrown at her with hardly a punch 'of note' in return !

 

[SQ8]

Your optimism from those days compared to now seems to have gone down the drain !

Going through those threads, you don't seem half as sullen as you do now ! Back then it seems as if the PAF had a fighting chance of perhaps stealing a thrust to the IAF's proverbial soft-underbelly to make them think a dozen times before going to war but now your posts suggest that the PAF would be lucky to even parry most of what is thrown at her with hardly a punch 'of note' in return !

Uss waqt dil khush tha.. aaj kal udaas hai.

But on a serious note, it has more to do with greater revelations of incompetence and our dead economic conditions. Moreover, I have had a chance to speak to more people close to the right circles and things are much worse than even Hamid Mir can fathom.

 

[Armstrong]

Uss waqt dil khush tha.. aaj kal udaas hai.

But on a serious note, it has more to do with greater revelations of incompetence and our dead economic conditions. Moreover, I have had a chance to speak to more people close to the right circles and things are much worse than even Hamid Mir can fathom.

I dunno yaaar, my Uncle is in the Army & everytime I talk to him, I don't know whether to think him (i) brimming with Patriotism or (ii) gushing ******** of delusion !

On questioning how do they plan on competing with the Indian Armour on an equitable footing - He replied that eik Tank - Grenade ki maaar hotiii haiii.....just one grenade down its gun & its done for !

But then again I also talked to an Airforce guy (Squadron Leader) , son-in-law of someone who taught me, & he told me to be not so sullen - We've got more up our sleeve than we care to admit & that were the Indians to try something funny....we still have the ability to inflict unacceptable damage upon them - They know it...we know it ! If things continue the way they are we might loose that initiative in 20 years time but not today nor tomorrow - So don't pisss yourself over talk of the MKIs & the Rafaels !

Pataaa nahin kaun khiskaa hovaa thaaa aur kaun sahiii thaa...or maybe both have fallen in love with their own legends ! But I'd admit this I'd take the PAF guy over my Uncle from the Army (a Colonel) any day of the week to be the guy who gives direction to the Armed Forces !

 

[SQ8]

I dunno yaaar, my Uncle is in the Army & everytime I talk to him, I don't know whether to think him (i) brimming with Patriotism or (ii) gushing ******** of delusion !

On questioning how do they plan on competing with the Indian Armour on an equitable footing - He replied that eik Tank - Grenade ki maaar hotiii haiii.....just one grenade down its gun & its done for !

But then again I also talked to an Airforce guy (Squadron Leader) , son-in-law of someone who taught me, & he told me to be not so sullen - We've got more up our sleeve than we care to admit & that were the Indians to try something funny....we still have the ability to inflict unacceptable damage upon them - They know it...we know it ! If things continue the way they are we might loose that initiative in 20 years time but not today nor tomorrow - So don't pisss yourself over talk of the MKIs & the Rafaels !

Pataaa nahin kaun khiskaa hovaa thaaa aur kaun sahiii thaa...or maybe both have fallen in love with their own legends ! But I'd admit this I'd take the PAF guy over my Uncle from the Army (a Colonel) any day of the week to be the guy who gives direction to the Armed Forces !

Ab think about this yourself... Kaun grenade le kar jaye ga in front of a 60-70 ton rolling machine which is firing two machine guns in full frontal? Sorry to say thing, but sounds like too much bravado.

It is good for warfighters to have confidence but it should be tempered with caution.
Sure, we wont go down without a fight and badly bruise the opposition.. but we will go down..and go down badly. And if god-forbid this happens the shock will be the same as 71 was. Uss waqt bhi there were uncles and all about aik maar dein ge Indians ko and what not.. Phir the news came .. and a lot of people.. and I mean a lot.. actually went into cardiac arrest because of the shock.. many went into serious depression. Har doosre ghar mein, especially those who had people in the Armed forces or were really into the idea of Pakistan.. it was like someone had died. Weeping, crying.. and all that.

 

[Armstrong]

Ab think about this yourself... Kaun grenade le kar jaye ga in front of a 60-70 ton rolling machine which is firing two machine guns in full frontal? Sorry to say thing, but sounds like too much bravado.

I thought so too but maybe he was trying to talk about that as a worst-case scenario !

It is good for warfighters to have confidence but it should be tempered with caution.
Sure, we wont go down without a fight and badly bruise the opposition.. but we will go down..and go down badly. And if god-forbid this happens the shock will be the same as 71 was. Uss waqt bhi there were uncles and all about aik maar dein ge Indians ko and what not.. Phir the news came .. and a lot of people.. and I mean a lot.. actually went into cardiac arrest because of the shock.. many went into serious depression. Har doosre ghar mein, especially those who had people in the Armed forces or were really into the idea of Pakistan.. it was like someone had died. Weeping, crying.. and all that.

What about the Bumb ?

Woh Shab-e-Barat ke liyee tou nahin rakhaa hovaaa & that too developed at the 'tactical' level !

 

[SQ8]

I thought so too but maybe he was trying to talk about that as a worst-case scenario !

What about the Bumb ?

Woh Shab-e-Barat ke liyee tou nahin rakhaa hovaaa & that too developed at the 'tactical' level !

Who's going to use the Bomb? Mr K? Mr Tikka? Mr Mamnoon? King Khan?
Those that do have the trigger are pretty sound men.. but even they need some form of political will to back them. And you cant just throw the bomb around as an all and all solution. A bomb flying means more flying means millions if not a billion dead. Who in their right conscience will take that decision?
I even detest our nuke being called Islamic as there is nothing Islamic about an indiscriminate killing force that destroys both man and nature at large for ages.

 

[Armstrong]

Who's going to use the Bomb? Mr K? Mr Tikka? Mr Mamnoon? King Khan?
Those that do have the trigger are pretty sound men.. but even they need some form of political will to back them. And you cant just throw the bomb around as an all and all solution. A bomb flying means more flying means millions if not a billion dead. Who in their right conscience will take that decision?
I even detest our nuke being called Islamic as there is nothing Islamic about an indiscriminate killing force that destroys both man and nature at large for ages.

I was talking about that in context of the '71 War !

 

[SQ8]

I was talking about that in context of the '71 War !

Bumb in 71 war??

 

[Armstrong]

Bumb in 71 war??

No a repeat of the '71 War or anything like it !

I don't think it would be too fantastic to assume that (i) there isn't going to be an Indo-Pak Conflict in the future because of the Bumb & because the Media, Economics, Posturing & Proxies does a better job anyhow & (ii) if there is then it wouldn't be so implausible to expect it to be a limited* conflict.

*Limited by either (a) time or (b) scale or (c) both !

 

[SQ8]

No a repeat of the '71 War or anything like it !

I don't think it would be too fantastic to assume that (i) there isn't going to be an Indo-Pak Conflict in the future because of the Bumb & because the Media, Economics, Posturing & Proxies does a better job anyhow & (ii) if there is then it wouldn't be so implausible to expect it to be a limited* conflict.

*Limited by either (a) time or (b) scale or (c) both !

Off course, there is very little chance for open war between India and Pakistan because intelligent leadership(or those advising them) realize that the costs of war and the resulting effects would be far worse for both nations to bear. But that is something the Indian leadership under congress(and the last BJP government) understood. So the policy of India is to encourage and let Pakistan's demons eat it up without much effort while grounding its role economically and politically.
So that if and when they really do need to hit something critical like a ISI spy op or otherwise..they can do so under the guise of protecting themselves from terrorism and there will be nothing Pakistan can do about it. Infact, India will probably be fully supported if it hits a Pakistani nuke facility near the border and claims it was preventing terrorists getting their hands on a nuke. It may not do to for any other reason apart from national morale.. but the simple fact is that they can and will do it if needed and Pakistan will not be able to do anything about it.
We dug this hole ourselves, or at least our feudal establishment did.