Naswar Corner

[BDforever]

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thanks mate

 

[livingdead]

So essentially it all comes down to - Its make-belief ! We made it up, it has no justification for it whatsoever because we thought it be 'unjust', 'unhealthy' & 'not in the best interests' of the society to allow individuals to operate as such ?

If that is true that whether something is right or wrong or whether something gets institutionalized or not is contingent on 'us deciding that it is' than it logically follows that there is no such thing as 'individual rights' & b*tching about them isn't going to make them manifest !

I said the 'rights' and 'wrongs' are made by society to save itself. I did not say that is imperative, or society 'should' do that.
Its how it is.
I am just taking pain to explain to society, that it's in society's interest to give some of those rights back to Individuals, for society's sake. A happy and content group of Individual will make better society, is all I am advocating.

Even now, society does not dictate everything. For example in today's India, my society does not select my profession anymore.

Whether I like or not, even those new individual rights will require to be sanctioned by society. Some require quite a bit of persuation.

 

[Armstrong]

Even if we concede that all these are concoctions, what next?

I can see where your going with this and I don't believe in objective morality, but I do believe in an common sense, an innate consciousnesses , and a rational which, admittedly is evolutionary and dependent on time and culture, for as our scope of understanding increaseth, so doth our perspective.

Reasoning well thought out, is that not the yardstick for deciding the common parlance?

An innate consciousness & an undefinable rationale - Dude thats as absurd as those claiming that there is a God because I feel it my bones, in the very fiber of being etc. that there has to be one !

As for the yardstick you use - Define Reason & then we'd go from there !

 

[Redbull]

Actually thats a pretty good argument; if Life has no purpose as, I suppose, Nihilism would have you believe than the most logical thing to do is to pick up a revolver & blow your brains out !

And that my friend is where I think religion comes in ? To give meaning to life & to the words we use to live by !

Objective morality, saw this coming from the first post

 

[KRAIT]

Bhains ki eyes band karo. Nasha chadd gaya hai tumhe.

Kuch Right left nahin hota. Woh sirf parade main hota hai.

 

[Armstrong]

I said the 'rights' and 'wrongs' are made by society to save itself. I did not say that is imperative, or society 'should' do that.
Its how it is.
I am just taking pain to explain to society, that it's in society's interest to give some of those rights back to Individuals, for society's sake. A happy and content group of Individual will make better society, is all I am advocating.

Even now, society does not dictate everything. For example in today's India, my society does not dictate my job anymore.

Whether I like or not, even those new individual rights will require to be sanctioned by society. Some require quite a bit of persuation.

So what decides which society is better than the other seeing that none of this is anything more than make-belief & agreements ?

Is it reason ? Do define for me !

 

[BDforever]

Objective morality, saw this coming from the first post

objectively and morally i am hungry... going to eat lol

 

[livingdead]

So what decides which society is better than the other seeing that none of this is anything more than make-belief & agreements ?

Is it reason ? Do define for me !

'better' and 'worse' are opinions, we can certainly have some statistical measurement (mutually agreed) to decide which one is better. (say infant mortality rate, literacy, prevalence of violence in society)
If we dont agree on any of those parameters, then there is no way to decide which one is 'better'.

 

[Armstrong]

Objective morality, saw this coming from the first post

Oh forget that we'd come to that part much later; lets begin by answering the question I raised !

 

[Hyperion]

Has the new kid been given the welcome orientation tour?

 

[Armstrong]

'better' and 'worse' are opinions, we can certainly have some statistical measurement (mutually agreed) to decide which one is better. (say infant mortality rate, literacy, prevalence of violence in society)
If we dont agree on any of those parameters, then there is no way to decide which one is 'better'.

Everything is an opinion !

Can't you guys see that ?

Even the use of something like Infant Mortality Rate makes sense only because we say so otherwise what does it matter whether a child survives or not ? Why should they ? Because they must ! Because healthy societies need to grow ? Why do they need to grow ? Where did this barometere come from ? Why is 'survival' ever so imperative ? Is the truth not brutal enough in the assertion that even our most sophisticated notions are little more than beastial emotions & instincts ! That this society must survive because its good to survive....because we must survive !

So I ask again - What is the yardstick by which we measure things by ? Nature, Reason...what ?

If its nature than beasts do so much that makes so much logical sense & yet we can't help but revolt at the assertion of them being institutionalized in our lives ! So what is it ? Whats the yardstick ? Define it for me !

 

[Redbull]

An innate consciousness & an undefinable rationale - Dude thats as absurd as those claiming that there is a God because I feel it my bones, in the very fiber of being etc. that there has to be one !

As for the yardstick you use - Define Reason & then we'd go from there !

Here goes, both God and a belief in inherent consciousnesses are beliefs, agreed. However, a belief in said consciousness is not as absurd as one in a feeling of a celestial stalker.

Have you ever done something that society considers bad and stopped yourself? what stopped you?, was it a fear of everlasting torment, or (the abstract idea) of your conscious, that you've done something out of place.

 

[Armstrong]

Here goes, both God and a belief in inherent consciousnesses are beliefs, agreed. However, a belief in said consciousness is not as absurd as one in a feeling of a celestial stalker.

Have you ever done something that society considers bad and stopped yourself? what stopped you?, was it a fear of everlasting torment, or (the abstract idea) of your conscious, that you've done something out of place.

Really why is it not ?

Believing in an innate consciousness that provides you a moral, ethical or even an otherwise compass to you, is as absurd as claiming that there is a giant tea pot orbiting the moon right now or conversely it makes as much sense as claiming the same.

You're believing in something that is completely undefinable, fallible to the core of whatever definition one may prescribe to it & yet we've used it as a yardstick, a touchstone to measure what we do in life & what is life to begin with - That sounds eerily like theism except instead of calling that undefinable thing as Yahweh or Brahma or God or Allah you've called it as 'the abstract idea of ones consciousness' !

 

[BDforever]

Has the new kid been given the welcome orientation tour?

 

[livingdead]

Everything is an opinion !

Can't you guys see that ?

Even the use of something like Infant Mortality Rate makes sense only because we say so otherwise what does it matter whether a child survives or not ? Why should they ? Because they must ! Because healthy societies need to grow ? Why do they need to grow ? Where did this barometere come from ? Why is 'survival' ever so imperative ? Is the truth not brutal enough in the assertion that even our most sophisticated notions are little more than beastial emotions & instincts ! That this society must survive because its good to survive....because we must survive !

So I ask again - What is the yardstick by which we measure things by ? Nature, Reason...what ?

If its nature than beasts do so much that makes so much logical sense & yet we can't help but revolt at the assertion of them being institutionalized in our lives ! So what is it ? Whats the yardstick ? Define it for me !

children are important for survival of society. Also caring for one's own kids comes from our biological instincts.
Survival and having babies are also biological instincts, were are not the only one who have that.

Society does not realize it is good or bad (all societies think they are good), all they try is to survive.