Nadeem F Paracha insults Allama Iqbal.

[Darth Vader]

Then clearly you aren't such a liberal that you claim to be. The Queen gets bashed around in Canada all the time; its not a big deal. And btw, the Queen is not a 'founding' personality of Canada. The original founders of Canada get their fair share of harsh criticisms too and not just in the public sphere but also in academic settings in universities when history and political science students scrutinize Canada's past. You have got to be joking if you actually think there is a comparison between Canada and Pakistan in how they treat their past, their national identity, etc.

Iqbal is NOT above criticism. Period.

Yes He is , Baba Quaid is The men who scarified their life for others they are who the hell are we to judge them and point fingers at them
these are bunch of some wannabees who want some light so they can get more attention Nothing else

and i do know how much critisism is allowed of queen In canada , nd Uk dont tell me that

 

[Multani]

Again, you seem to be going off on a tangent yet accuse me of not knowing. I am still waiting for an answer to my question, which, for your forgetful mind was, give me a good example of an Islamic institution working efficiently and effectively today. I see you have dodged my question again and started ranting instead.

You talk about Shariat, here you are disputing even the simple ritual of offering salah and wondering if I do it correctly or not and according to Hanafi school or some other. This is precisely the current state of affairs of this 'ummah' and yet your Shaheen is nowhere to be seen. Muslims who cannot even agree on the style of offering salah, are going to find solutions to extremely complex problems that face modern day Muslims - when even modernity itself is seen as a problem? Hardly.

When a Pakistani Muslim cannot feed his children due to poverty and injustice, do you think he's going to have wet-dreams about a Caliphate? NO. His problems are HERE and NOW, the result of an unjust society which has led him to the desperate situation of not being able to feed his kids. When an angry mob of illiterate idiots burns down an entire Christian village in Punjab owing to simple rumors of someone desecrating a Qur'an, you think anyone is thinking about Imam Mehdi? NO. Because all those burning the poor Christians' houses and business think they are the Khalifa themselves and the 'ghairat brigade'; they forget Islam's most powerful message of tolerance and forgiveness.

So yes there will never be a Caliphate in my lifetime, nor yours. So its better to stop dreaming about it and start doing something in the form of finding practical solutions to the real-life problems of society, civil liberties, etc faced by Muslims today in their own countries as well as abroad; as well as non-Muslims' problems in Muslim countries of persecution, discrimination, forced conversions, etc.

You can keep huffing and puffing; bottomline is, you have no answers, no solutions. Only cheap talk and cheap taunts.

I have made a list of all your blunders in this thread, made against Islam, which are proof that you do not have any qualification to decide the affairs and lives of Muslims, or to touch this subject .

Moreover, you have no right to judge the Shaheen. Allamah Iqbal attended religious gatherings of top Shari'ah scholars in India and had acquaintances with them. On the other hand, he attended gatherings of Sufi Masters as well. As such, he had legitimacy to comment on Islamic issues and on the lives of the Muslims of Pakistan, being a student of Islam. And he whole-heartedly did. Even top contemporary indian Islamic Scholars continue to comment on Allamah Iqbal's ideas.

inshaAllah, one day I will post them, and Pakistanis will realize what a great NEMAT, Allah Paak has given us in the form of this mighty mighty man Allamah Iqbal

Does NFP appreciate this background of Allamah Iqbal?

Is there any Islamic Scholar that NFP likes? Is there any Islamic Scholar Nadi likes?

 

[syedali73]

@Nadi: Please dont lose your breath on educating terrorist sympathizers. They understand only one language, the language of violence. Time is not far when Pakistanis will take up the arms and do the job what their inapt political leaders and military supposed to do, eradicate terrorists.

 

[Khan_patriot]

Nah ... This anarchist pigface has got the guts to express himself freely in a highly hypocritical and conservative society ... A very rare quality indeed

He is clear in his thoughts . He rejects all Islamists . For him , they are all bad . And when he said "Iqbal was worse than Maudodi" , he meant Iqbal was more extreme in his views than Maudodi . The conservatives and Iqbal worshippers should take it as a compliment !!!

I myself am a big admirer of Iqbal and I believe Iqbal was not a Mullah by any definition

Iqbal was an Islamist...???
He was actually quite the opposite of what an Islamist is thought to be, he was even declared an infidel by our generous hypocrite Mullahs of the time.....

 

[SarthakGanguly]

@Nadi: Please dont lose your breath on educating terrorist sympathizers. They understand only one language, the language of violence. Time is not far when Pakistanis will take up the arms and do the job what their inapt political leaders and military supposed to do, eradicate terrorists.

I just remember a movie - not the ghisa-peeta types -
'A Wednesday'
A Wednesday (2008) - IMDb

Doston - do watch this Thank me later. @Zarvan yaar tu bhi dekhna, baad mein gaali dena

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

Its jinnah next & then they put mohammad himself on trial eventually!

edit:
LOL just saw madudi's on give a beating to MA Jinnah on Dunya news talk show!

 

[Cherokee]

Impressed with the way @Nadi puts his thoughts down in posts . Very few people can write so clearly .

 

[Nadi]

I have made a list of all your blunders in this thread, made against Islam, which are proof that you do not have any qualification to decide the affairs and lives of Muslims, or to touch this subject .

Moreover, you have no right to judge the Shaheen. Allamah Iqbal attended religious gatherings of top Shari'ah scholars in India and had acquaintances with them. On the other hand, he attended gatherings of Sufi Masters as well. As such, he had legitimacy to comment on Islamic issues and on the lives of the Muslims of Pakistan, being a student of Islam. And he whole-heartedly did. Even top contemporary indian Islamic Scholars continue to comment on Allamah Iqbal's ideas.

inshaAllah, one day I will post them, and Pakistanis will realize what a great NEMAT, Allah Paak has given us in the form of this mighty mighty man Allamah Iqbal

Does NFP appreciate this background of Allamah Iqbal?

Is there any Islamic Scholar that NFP likes? Is there any Islamic Scholar Nadi likes?

I am still waiting for an answer to my question: Which Islamic institution is currently working efficiently and effectively? Give me a good example. THREE days and counting, yet you have no response. You think, taunting me with 'oh you dont have any knowledge' is enough to hide your own incompetence at answering a simple question that you have been asked again and again by me. Everyone can see right through your feeble attempts at creating a smokescreen.

Whoa! I almost burst out laughing! From 'no criticism of Allama Iqbal'... you have taken it to a new height 'dont judge the Shaheen' - the imaginary Shaheen! oh how dreadful sin we have committed by questioning a Shaheen that does not exist except in the views of Iqbal.. Astaghfirullah! (...errr all the pun intended btw)

Your simple and naive worldview is either white or black; unfortunately reality is quite different. Just because NFP is criticizing Iqbal's 'Shaheen' concept and I agree with him, that does not mean NFP and/or I do not respect Iqbal. Ofcourse Iqbal is one in a millenia type of personalities that grace a nation with their intellect. Criticizing doesn't mean someone is completely against that person.

Maybe I should give you an example: My best friend could very well be the dearest person to me but I may not like his/her smoking and I may criticize him/her about her smoking habit. That doesn't mean I suddenly am against my best friend. Comprende? Or do I know have to start typing in Urdu to make myself clearer?

Its not about 'liking' a particular Islamic scholar or any Islamic scholar for that matter. I could care less if there was an Islamic scholar in every nook and cranny of Pakistan (which is where its going pretty much); bottomeline is, WHAT PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS have any modern day Islamic scholar offered to the 'ummah'...? Hardly any.

Today's Islamic scholars are confined to Q-tv and their daily advice to Pakistani housewives getting bored at home while others have taken the corporate road to becoming televangelists & the leftovers have joined and/or are heading totally irrelevant religion based political parties that have no real manifesto to solve the problems of the masses except their nonsensical rhetoric of 'Amreeeeka dushman hai' and 'lets convert everyone darn soul'..

Thats not the answer the Muslim world of today needs.

 

[Multani]

I am still waiting for an answer to my question: Which Islamic institution is currently working efficiently and effectively? Give me a good example. THREE days and counting, yet you have no response. You think, taunting me with 'oh you dont have any knowledge' is enough to hide your own incompetence at answering a simple question that you have been asked again and again by me. Everyone can see right through your feeble attempts at creating a smokescreen.

Whoa! I almost burst out laughing! From 'no criticism of Allama Iqbal'... you have taken it to a new height 'dont judge the Shaheen' - the imaginary Shaheen! oh how dreadful sin we have committed by questioning a Shaheen that does not exist except in the views of Iqbal.. Astaghfirullah! (...errr all the pun intended btw)

Your simple and naive worldview is either white or black; unfortunately reality is quite different. Just because NFP is criticizing Iqbal's 'Shaheen' concept and I agree with him, that does not mean NFP and/or I do not respect Iqbal. Ofcourse Iqbal is one in a millenia type of personalities that grace a nation with their intellect. Criticizing doesn't mean someone is completely against that person.

Maybe I should give you an example: My best friend could very well be the dearest person to me but I may not like his/her smoking and I may criticize him/her about her smoking habit. That doesn't mean I suddenly am against my best friend. Comprende? Or do I know have to start typing in Urdu to make myself clearer?

Its not about 'liking' a particular Islamic scholar or any Islamic scholar for that matter. I could care less if there was an Islamic scholar in every nook and cranny of Pakistan (which is where its going pretty much); bottomeline is, WHAT PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS have any modern day Islamic scholar offered to the 'ummah'...? Hardly any.

Today's Islamic scholars are confined to Q-tv and their daily advice to Pakistani housewives getting bored at home while others have taken the corporate road to becoming televangelists & the leftovers have joined and/or are heading totally irrelevant religion based political parties that have no real manifesto to solve the problems of the masses except their nonsensical rhetoric of 'Amreeeeka dushman hai' and 'lets convert everyone darn soul'..

Thats not the answer the Muslim world of today needs.

Calm down. Islamic scholars confined to Q-tv?

I am proposing this idea, because Nadi and NFP have NOT spoken against religious dogma [ except against the Islamic Caliphate, which is a MUTAWATIR belief of ALL Muslims ] of any sect, but just highlighted the failure of the present day mullas. Their argument is that it is not the failure of the Islamic religion, but the character of the mullas that has caused depravity. So, we need a new generation of people qualified to solve issues, and qualified to teach religion. I don't think Nadi or NFP or Azlan believe in separation of church and state. They want good Islamic Scholars, who can help with solving issues that the Muslims are facing. They want people of good character. @Azlan Haider

Give me an example of an Islamic Scholar that you follow [ in religious dogma ], assuming you belong to some Muslim community in Pakistan. And this is for NFP. If you are a Pakistani, then you must be listening to some Islamic Scholar [ that you feel right about or that speaks your language on social issues, being so involved in this argument ] at some point of your life. Not on Tv, someone in real life, face to face. If not, then may be your mother or father or uncle or PHUPPO does. Tell me about them. There must be at least SOMEONE. Or is there none?

i would like to know, who you have been acquainted with, or who have you studied. And this question is for NFP. Yes he has studied Maududi, and Allamah Iqbal [ who is a student, not a scholar ], but to clarify his stances, he must have interviewed or debated some so called real life Islamic scholar, from any sect in Pakistan.

 

[M. Sarmad]

@Azlan Haider
Give me an example of an Islamic Scholar that you follow [ in religious dogma ], assuming you belong to some Muslim community in Pakistan.

Well, the problem is you "assume" too much

 

[Multani]

Well, the problem is you "assume" too much

since, you all are warriors for socialism, be straight up, be honest, and straight-forward

I am sure no mulla is holding a sword over your neck

 

[M. Sarmad]

since, you all are warriors for socialism, be straight up, be honest, and straight-forward

I am sure no mulla is holding a sword over your neck

I am being honest and straight forward dear . What you follow in the name of religion is mostly "conjecture" and "assumptions" , otherwise you would have known that a so called "Alim e Deen" is not an "Alim" as per Quran ...

Ulema and Pakistan Movement

 

[Nadi]

Calm down. Islamic scholars confined to Q-tv?

I am proposing this idea, because Nadi and NFP have NOT spoken against religious dogma [ except against the Islamic Caliphate, which is a MUTAWATIR belief of ALL Muslims ] of any sect, but just highlighted the failure of the present day mullas. Their argument is that it is not the failure of the Islamic religion, but the character of the mullas that has caused depravity. So, we need a new generation of people qualified to solve issues, and qualified to teach religion. I don't think Nadi or NFP or Azlan believe in separation of church and state. They want good Islamic Scholars, who can help with solving issues that the Muslims are facing. They want people of good character. @Azlan Haider

Give me an example of an Islamic Scholar that you follow [ in religious dogma ], assuming you belong to some Muslim community in Pakistan. And this is for NFP. If you are a Pakistani, then you must be listening to some Islamic Scholar [ that you feel right about or that speaks your language on social issues, being so involved in this argument ] at some point of your life. Not on Tv, someone in real life, face to face. If not, then may be your mother or father or uncle or PHUPPO does. Tell me about them. There must be at least SOMEONE. Or is there none?

i would like to know, who you have been acquainted with, or who have you studied. And this question is for NFP. Yes he has studied Maududi, and Allamah Iqbal [ who is a student, not a scholar ], but to clarify his stances, he must have interviewed or debated some so called real life Islamic scholar, from any sect in Pakistan.

More assumptions. Just because NFP and I agree that a Caliphate is a utopian dream doesn't mean we are necessarily 'against' a Caliphate. If a Caliph rises in the Muslim world who can fix the problems plaguing it today, I'd be the first person to pledge allegiance to him. However, the fact of the matter is, even if there were a Caliph to arise, many Muslims will doubt him and not accept him as a legitimate Caliph. Therefore, it is sufficient to believe that the time of a righteous Caliphate ended with the four Rashidun Khalifas. What happens hundreds or thousands of years from today, is NOT my concern.

Yes people like NFP and I do want a separation of 'church and state' so to speak around the Muslim world; and there are clear examples of Muslim countries which have done so and are successful today.

I do not follow any Islamic scholar, I follow the Quran and Sunnah. That is all that Islam asks me to believe in. I don't need 'clergy' to tell me what to do and how to do it.

And you still have NO response to my question regarding a good example of an Islamic institution that is working efficiently and effectively today. Tsk Tsk. It must suck to not be able to come up with even one such example since you have evaded this question for 4 days now. My sympathies to you.

 

[Multani]

More assumptions. Just because NFP and I agree that a Caliphate is a utopian dream doesn't mean we are necessarily 'against' a Caliphate. If a Caliph rises in the Muslim world who can fix the problems plaguing it today, I'd be the first person to pledge allegiance to him. However, the fact of the matter is, even if there were a Caliph to arise, many Muslims will doubt him and not accept him as a legitimate Caliph. Therefore, it is sufficient to believe that the time of a righteous Caliphate ended with the four Rashidun Khalifas. What happens hundreds or thousands of years from today, is NOT my concern.

Yes people like NFP and I do want a separation of 'church and state' so to speak around the Muslim world; and there are clear examples of Muslim countries which have done so and are successful today.

I do not follow any Islamic scholar, I follow the Quran and Sunnah. That is all that Islam asks me to believe in. I don't need 'clergy' to tell me what to do and how to do it.

And you still have NO response to my question regarding a good example of an Islamic institution that is working efficiently and effectively today. Tsk Tsk. It must suck to not be able to come up with even one such example since you have evaded this question for 4 days now. My sympathies to you.

You are getting softer on your stances Nadi. From NO Caliphate to a possible Caliphate in the future, which you will accept. Bravo. You are changing as the days go by

You said about following Qur'an and Sunnah. Lets say they constitute a body of knowledge. Don't they? Now, lets say we have a science thumping teenager in High School. He wants to become an engineer of course, or a scientist, but lets assume an engineer. So what will he do? He will go to a University, where he will attend an Engineering College. Not necessarily, but likely as an avenue to become an engineer.

Now, to gain religious knowledge, one has to go to a religious school or institution as well. If one wants to take that education far enough to become a qualified Islamic scholar. This is all common sense.But the point is, even basic knowledge of Qur'an Paak and Sunnah Shareefaa has to be gained from some teacher. If it is gained from a book, then that book must have been written by some Islamic Scholar.

If you read the Hadith Collection Bukhari Shareef, then that was composed by a scholar Imam Bukhari rahmatullah alaih.. This is the problem of these so called liberals pretending to lecture other Muslims on Islam. They do not know what they are talking about. NFP has not studied Islam in itself. He is not qualified to even criticize Maududi on religious grounds, as he does not claim to be a student of Islam. He can criticize Maududi on moral, social grounds.

His criticism holds no weight against Allamah Iqbal. Except that he is trying to hurt the feelings of the vast vast majority of Pakistanis.

 

[Hiptullha]

You are getting softer on your stances Nadi. From NO Caliphate to a possible Caliphate in the future, which you will accept. Bravo. You are changing as the days go by

You said about following Qur'an and Sunnah. Lets say they constitute a body of knowledge. Don't they? Now, lets say we have a science thumping teenager in High School. He wants to become an engineer of course, or a scientist, but lets assume an engineer. So what will he do? He will go to a University, where he will attend an Engineering College. Not necessarily, but likely as an avenue to become an engineer.

Now, to gain religious knowledge, one has to go to a religious school or institution as well. If one wants to take that education far enough to become a qualified Islamic scholar. This is all common sense.But the point is, even basic knowledge of Qur'an Paak and Sunnah Shareefaa has to be gained from some teacher. If it is gained from a book, then that book must have been written by some Islamic Scholar.

If you read the Hadith Collection Bukhari Shareef, then that was composed by a scholar Imam Bukhari rahmatullah alaih.. This is the problem of these so called liberals pretending to lecture other Muslims on Islam. They do not know what they are talking about. NFP has not studied Islam in itself. He is not qualified to even criticize Maududi on religious grounds, as he does not claim to be a student of Islam. He can criticize Maududi on moral, social grounds.

His criticism holds no weight against Allamah Iqbal. Except that he is trying to hurt the feelings of the vast vast majority of Pakistanis.

The thing is, an engineering student is studying SCIENCE whereas a religious student is studying OPINIONS and INTERPRETATIONS. In Science, there are hypothesises, empirical evidence, data and all that jazz. Theology? Assessing scriptures, verses, and quotes which go back hundreds of years ago and then tryong to make assumptions with them.

It's easy to be taught the "wrong thing" when studying theology. There are countless different opinions, views, and beliefs which one has to choose, each of them saying different things on different issues. That's completely the opposite when you're studying science. If a professor tells a student that frogs have 2 brains or that cars run on chocolate sauce, you can easily find out yourself by browsing the web or conducting an experiment. But what if a scholar told his student that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) approved of a veil which only covered the head? How can you tell if he did or didn't? You'll need to read the INTERPRETATIONS of scholars, which is something you can't completely verify.

And finally, enough with this "muh feelings" nonsense. Frankly, those who get hurt over silly statements and other peoples views should be given a good kick. Instead of whining about "muh feelings", try to respond with something constructive?