N & S Waziristan Taliban Groups Join Forces

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Threads on the Alliance of the North & South Waziristan taliban and Mullah Omar's alleged directive to stop fighting the PA merged.

Merged thread starts from post 32

 

[S-2]

"is it good for Pakistan esp in the Fata-lands or bad for us - and which taliban groups he is not supporting.The afghan talibans who are "'oitering' in our lands and making hit and run forays against the Nato/ISAF/US forces in afghanistan.?

Is he now going to 'eliminate' these talibans from our fata lands or keep giving them 'safe refuge'?

will this stop drone attacks?

how does the US admn see this development 'pan out'."

I think it's a fascinating gambit for Mehsud (and implicitly Faizullah?), Bahadur,and Nazir to unite under the Afghan Taliban. It's certain that Mullah Omar is a friend to somebody important in your government and doesn't wish to upset the GoP against his objectives for Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar's position on this has been clear for some time. These men have declared their intentions to use their resources and troops to attack Afghanistan and, I presume, avoid conflict with the P.A.

What that means exactly I'm unsure. If a P.A. infantry brigade rolled into their neighborhood, how long would that restraint last? So long as you stay clear and give them free run at Afghanistan and full writ over their seized lands, you may have a truce of sorts-no more.

PREDATOR certainly wouldn't stop. If anything, this indicates an increase of attacks in Afghanistan at the hands of these men is forecasted.

 

[mhacsan]

i guess during the merge Agnostic Muslim has lost my post, can you retrieve that please??? as it contains answers to Torpedo questions.

can you do that plz mob

 

[kidwaibhai]

i dont think that they have anymore contacts with the government in pakistan the only reason they are doing this entire dog and pony show is to win the public support in pakistan which i know that they are losing tremendously also they dont want to fight the PA and ISAF at the same time. i think they have learned this lesson from Bajaur and Mohammand.

 

[S-2]

"we know Afghanies better than u do."

Maybe. Were it to matter, though, your government would have mentored the taliban government to an acceptable modicum of behavior. As it was, you were a primary player in Afghanistan's full descent into chaos following the Soviet departure.

None of the forty one foreign nations with soldiers and reconstruction civilians in Afghanistan are there for "strategic depth". None are there to push the Durand Line east or west. No nation is there to pit tribes, ethnicities, or religions against one another.

Those governments are committed to Afghanistan for one reason and that's to raise forth a nation which can be responsible to it's citizens and neighbors. This objective should appeal deeply to Pakistan but it would appear not.

You speak of complexities but nothing is more complex than nation-building. The exacerbation of issues by an insurgency fueled from across your border is most unhelpful to the community objectives specified in the UN mandate given the existing issues.

 

[ishaq76]

in waziristan pakistan army has all the abilities to wipe the infiltrating terrorists across the border and the crimnals or naive people but the thing is that u must stop the one who is nourishing and breeding them, these people are neithers pakistans friend nor any one else's they were planted and recruited in pakistan or the whole region by americans. and now they are like free lance, ruthless, merceneries working for those who can pay for their requirements. i hope if america leave the region__ which they will very soon as they are waiting for honourable exit___ indians are not capable to facilitate them so they will be like blood hungry people and God forbid whose home will be the next where they will be carrying out their agenda of bloodshed. moreover pakistan is only deploying 100,000 troops to fight against them, but india against the same number of freedom fighters has deployed more than a million which is a clear proof of capability. moreover we the pathans have capability to erase them from the pak territories once the army allow us to do so . in nutshell militancy is just a seasonal fever but our enemies surrounding us are real problem for us. we must stop our love affair with them and tighten their screws.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Were it to matter, though, your government would have mentored the taliban government to an acceptable modicum of behavior. As it was, you were a primary player in Afghanistan's full descent into chaos following the Soviet departure.

This is an excellent point S-2. Through all the blame that is thrown at the US by Pakistanis for the situation in Afghanistan, post-Soviet defeat, very little introspective responsibility is ever manifest. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a Pakistani protege state if ever there was one. Pakistan failed miserably to mentor Afghanistan into any semblance of a responsible nation. The reality is that Afghanistan's descent into internal chaos and external terror is more the fault of Pakistan than any other nation, save the Afghans themselves. A very good case could be made that Pakistan is reaping what it sowed.

 

[Kasrkin]

"It's certain that Mullah Omar is a friend to somebody important in your government and doesn't wish to upset the GoP against his objectives for Afghanistan..."

Far from it. Mullah Omar is just being pragmatic in asking his supporters to avoid conflict with the PA. He knows that Pakistan as a nation of 166 million Muslims and its Army are here to stay. But NATO/US, according to him and many in Afghanistan and the world, will cut and run when this particular endeavor becomes unsustainable. It’s what anyone would have done, because fighting the Muslim PA will fatally erode any potential sympathies or support in the Pakistani population and increase the already swelling pressure on his flanks.

Mullah Omar may not be a general, but he has the lead the Taliban so far. It’s no surprise to me that Omar seeks to distance himself from the indiscriminate violence and subsequent resentment in Pakistan under the name of the Taliban. He is seeking to exercise influence here and check the trend that is alienating Pakistanis and brutally antagonizing the half a million strong PA. But the ‘he certainly has friends in high places in Pakistan’ bit is just an overly-presumptuous leap on your part. Things are never that black and white. Just because his military ambitions are limited to Afghanistan and is trying to channel his resources there, does not automatically imply that he is in league with Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The reality is that Afghanistan's descent into internal chaos and external terror is more the fault of Pakistan than any other nation.

That is not accurate given the conditions that existed in Afghanistan at the local level before the arrival of the Taliban. Those conditions were the result of a complete lack of governance and the rule of warlords and criminals and the ethnic and civil strife in that nation.

If one were to look at the areas the Taliban controlled, then the situation in terms of stability and law and order was dramatically improved over the conditions that existed pre-Taliban.

External terror was not created or sponsored by the Taliban or Pakistan - that is a complete fallacy. OBL and his fellow Arabs received guest treatment by virtue of their participation and contribution in the Afghan Jihad (for which the Afghans were rightfully grateful) and the local connections they had built, but that does not automatically make them complicit in what AQ morphed into.

As I said before, in hindsight the Afghan invasion was a mistake - the Taliban could have been eventually convinced to turn over the suspects to a third country that both sides agreed upon.

 

[S-2]

"But the ‘he certainly has friends in high places in Pakistan’ bit is just an overly-presumptuous leap on your part."

A wanted and deposed leader of a government at war with Afghanistan resides in your nation since late 2001. Your D.G.I.S.I. is more concerned about his rights to free speech.

Your thoughts were verbatim to mine with this exception. It's notable. I don't expect to change your mind but I'll not likely change mine. I believe that there are those in your government and military occupying senior positions that support his ambitions to reclaim control of Afghanistan.

Flat out.

"then the situation in terms of stability and law and order was dramatically improved over the conditions that existed pre-Taliban."

I see you take pride in raising a government one step above utter dysfunction. They were rigorous in establishing "stability" and "law and order". Order, perhaps. Law? Of course not unless medieval justice is your preference. Stability? Another way of saying "order".

I stand by my point. There was no visible effort to aid that nation in any tangible respect.

"OBL and his fellow Arabs received guest treatment by virtue of their participation and contribution in the Afghan Jihad (for which the Afghans were rightfully grateful) and the local connections they had built, but that does not automatically make them complicit in what AQ morphed into."

Not a surprising view here, I suppose. Of course it wasn't "automatic". Actually, there's a long history to implicate the taliban's complicity-1994 WTC, Nairobi, Dar-es-salaam, Khobar Towers, and the U.S.S. Cole gave these numbskulls in the taliban all the warning they needed that al Qaeda were not men whom a government of any responsible ilk would harbor. So too, at least two PREDATOR attempts at OBL's camps.

The taliban knew they were playing with fire.

Special dispensation for an honorable war effort? How about CASH? That reads more likely to me.

The taliban were broke.

 

[Kasrkin]

I believe that there are those in your government and military occupying senior positions that support his ambitions to reclaim control of Afghanistan. Flat out.

But you have NOTHING to back this. You don't even have a decent argument, however your instinctive distrust is apparent. Your half-hearted reference to some vague quotes attributed to General Pasha mean nothing, and you know it.

There was no visible effort to aid that nation in any tangible respect.

We did what we could, given our limited resources. Which is more than I can say for some others...

The Afghans were sufficiently content with the Taliban at the time, which was good enough for us. So too were the Americans until later on.

 

[S-2]

"But you have NOTHING to back this."

Sure. If you say so...

 

[Kasrkin]

^^^Well I'd love it if you could try and prove me wrong.

 

[S-2]

"We did what we could, given our limited resources. Which is more than I can say for some others..."

Who'd you have in mind? Not America, I hope. We were their biggest humanitarian aid donor though we didn't recognize their government. I guess that's after we abandoned them, correct?

What COULD you do for them given your limited resources besides assist their efforts to eradicate the N.A.? After all, one must have priorities.

Oh well, if you weren't able to do much for their government then, the same can't be said now. The taliban government of Afghanistan should honestly say it has no better friend than the government and people of Pakistan. I know Mullah Omar feels such.

"The Afghans were sufficiently content with the Taliban at the time, which was good enough for us. So too were the Americans until later on."

How smug and self-satisfied. Don't include us in your coterie. We didn't recognize them for good reason. There was no satisfaction on our part. You were easily satisfied-a willing and pliable junior partner.

It's all about the strategic depth thingy. Was, is, and forever shall be.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What COULD you do for them given your limited resources besides assist their efforts to eradicate the N.A.? After all, one must have priorities.

Given the mess the NA had created with their corruption and 'warlordism', not unlike what we once more see in Afghanistan after the US put them in charge again, that was a reasonable priority.

And yes, resources from Pakistan were primarily devoted to the war effort, but the war effort itself was fueled by the hope that the ensuing stability under a singular government would result in transnational business opportunities that would inevitably benefit both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I see you take pride in raising a government one step above utter dysfunction. They were rigorous in establishing "stability" and "law and order". Order, perhaps. Law? Of course not unless medieval justice is your preference. Stability? Another way of saying "order".

Not necessarily pride, but TS's description of the Taliban was flawed, and I pointed that out. Secondly, moving from a land of daily rapes, murders, robberies and extortion from every kind of scum imaginable, to one where most of those problems were controlled and even on-existent in some areas is quite a bit more than 'one step above utter dysfunction'. Your aversion to their ideology clouds your judgment when it comes to analyzing the stability and 'law and order' they brought about. I am no fan of their interpretation of Islam, but given the situation that existed pre-Taliban, the environment under Taliban rule was preferable by a long shot.

How smug and self-satisfied. Don't include us in your coterie. We didn't recognize them for good reason. There was no satisfaction on our part. You were easily satisfied-a willing and pliable junior partner.

Oh you were satisfied alright - the US businessmen plying the roads of Afghanistan and Turkmenistan did so with full State Department knowledge and backing, with the US embassy in Islamabad lobbying on behalf of American business interests as well.

Lets not pretend to be angels here - everyone was looking out for their own interests.