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N-deal with Pak could hit ties, India cautions China

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yet another insensible and BS post......
dude! few minutes before sleeping, when you are alone at bed, think sensibly (oh! where you will find sense) about your this post and you will feel ashamed thinking of these BS.
Indian developed their nuclear program on their own!!!:what: Are you kidding me?

I am leaving this thread as their is no sane indian contribution here, except few bull shits.
high_horse.jpg

You want to hit ur head on wall you are free to do the same but we have no such world wide famous (read defamed) scientist like Mr A Q Khan who is still under investigation of proliferation.

Care to explain who else in the world has developed Thorium based technic succesfully. Other few succesful developments in India by Indians can be listed here but for now I am only mentioning ISRO who has been denied kryogenic engine.
 
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It is evident that India would not like to see a neighbor on par with itself and it uses multiple tricks to keep it that way. The parity we want to achieve, we keep striving for even in the hard and difficult times. The Indian psyche is simple and straightforward, they want Pakistan to collapse or weaken to such a level that Indian hegemony is achieved.

Here is what Milton Bearden, a former C.I.A. station chief said about India.

“Until September 11th, they thought they’d won this thing—they had Pakistan on the ropes.” Because of its nuclear program, he said, “Pakistan was isolated and sanctioned by the United States, with only China left as an ally."

Every ten years, India is ecstatic when things look really bleak for Pakistan, happened when USSR invaded Afghanistan, happened in late 90's as said by Mr Bearden. Very recently all that failed state propaganda made them overly optimistic but we pulled through and are regaining what we lost.

Simple as that, a country would not another keeping it down, nothing wrong in that but I am not very fond of such articles and how much time we spend debating them.
 
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Please show me where any of those reasons are mentioned in the NSG charter?

NSG Charter for what? Not to have US-Pak deal? These reasons which I listed shows that reasons and profit scenario for both parties' as per "discrimination" between 2 parties mentioned by you.

Secondly, India did not develop its nuclear program on its own, it developed with significant assistance from the West and Soviet Union.

Well reference and assistances are always different from proliferation. India didnot do any kind of proliferation and apart from Pakistan noone in the world blames India for N proliferation.

In fact, it was India's diversion of Canadian supplied nuclear technology (The CANDU reactor) towards a nuclear weapons program (India's first nuclear test) that resulted in the creation of the NSG to prevent other nations from misusing nuclear technology for weapons purposes.

Strange and contradictory, India took help simultaneously with Canada and Soviet Union which were against each other during Cold war. If that is true then I believe India was always a great diplomat to have mouse and cat in same bucket.

Request you to read about Dr Homi Jahangir Bhabha and his efforts for developing India as N country.
 
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It is evident that India would not like to see a neighbor on par with itself and it uses multiple tricks to keep it that way. The parity we want to achieve, we keep striving for even in the hard and difficult times. The Indian psyche is simple and straightforward, they want Pakistan to collapse or weaken to such a level that Indian hegemony is achieved.
Here is what Milton Bearden, a former C.I.A. station chief said about India.



Every ten years, India is ecstatic when things look really bleak for Pakistan, happened when USSR invaded Afghanistan, happened in late 90's as said by Mr Bearden. Very recently all that failed state propaganda made them overly optimistic but we pulled through and are regaining what we lost.

Simple as that, a country would not another keeping it down, nothing wrong in that but I am not very fond of such articles and how much time we spend debating them.


T-Faz, I wont reply your whole topic but just highlight that Bold part as I mentioned, I or any sensible country will not have any issue with other developing nation to have energy sources. If you buy tons of coals or develop dams with China to end energy crisis, nobody would have any problem but here problem lies with 2 suspective countries share radioactive elements which can be developed as N-Bombs.
 
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Do you really want me and whole world to believe that Pakistan without (read illegal) support of any country developed N-technology while they could not develop a full fledged weapon by their own? Not to mention, Please see the missile arsenals of yours which are directly coming from China.

Your statement says a lot about your point of view and I do not want go off topic by listing the weapons we have produced ourselves, but you will not believe me either.

I provide you with references and even mentioned that China assisted us but you turn it around to bash Pakistan, this mentality is prevalent in quite a few of you and I do not think its worth arguing against.
 
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Your statement says a lot about your point of view and I do not want go off topic by listing the weapons we have produced ourselves, but you will not believe me either.

I provide you with references and even mentioned that China assisted us but you turn it around to bash Pakistan, this mentality is prevalent in quite a few of you and I do not think its worth arguing against.

T-Faz, Apologies if my statment offended you but my point of view in synchronization with the world opinion remains same that Pakistan's N program is not fully developed by themselves and as you mentions China assisted the same. The point is how much assistance was involved, Nobody knows hence we can merely guess for the same.

PS: For last two post, you are generalizing Indian psyche without even understanding the point. Please refer world opinion and if that is different then mine then I am ready to back off.
 
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T-Faz, Apologies if my statment offended you but my point of view in synchronization with the world opinion remains same that Pakistan's N program is not fully developed by themselves and as you mentions China assisted the same. The point is how much assistance was involved, Nobody knows hence we can merely guess for the same.

PS: For last two post, you are generalizing Indian psyche without even understanding the point. Please refer world opinion and if that is different then mine then I am ready to back off.

What is world opinion?

It sure is not independent fact based belief or conclusion but rather what is fed to the general masses through media and government propaganda.

The world opinion was that Iraq had WMD's and could launch an attack on Europe within 45 minutes.

The world opinion was that Pakistan is going to collapse in 2009 and its nuclear weapons stolen.

World opinion is such that it can even cloud the mind of the most intelligent of humans. The reality is different to what is often presented, if we start to go by world opinion, we would be as good as dead because the common man does not know much about the tasks that matter.

I am not generalizing, I am presenting my opinion that will be shared by many people with similar background, you are presenting what is your opinion and in general the masses. So we both have our versions and realities that differ.
 
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From First article.

“There should be a model agreement that could be signed with any country that meets the criteria. It should not be country-specific

From 2nd link

Spokesperson said that Pakistan does not want nuclear arms race in the region at the same time it is committed to have a minimum deterrence in view of the strategic balance of the region. She also said that any development that can impinge on the strategic balance in south Asia is a matter of vital concern for them.

From 3rd link

The heading says it all
Indo-US deal: China criticizes double standards



Case Closed
 
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What is world opinion?

It sure is not independent fact based belief or conclusion but rather what is fed to the general masses through media and government propaganda.

The world opinion was that Iraq had WMD's and could launch an attack on Europe within 45 minutes.

The world opinion was that Pakistan is going to collapse in 2009 and its nuclear weapons stolen.

World opinion is such that it can even cloud the mind of the most intelligent of humans. The reality is different to what is often presented, if we start to go by world opinion, we would be as good as dead because the common man does not know much about the tasks that matter.

I am not generalizing, I am presenting my opinion that will be shared by many people with similar background, you are presenting what is your opinion and in general the masses. So we both have our versions and realities that differ.

T-Faz, Let me ask you this way

Why has US denied nuclear tech to Pakistan while allowing it to India? Why is US now opposing China Pakistan nuclear deal? After all Pakistan is not a small market by any standards

There must be some genuine reasons
 
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Well i think its natural isn't it, particularly with the animosity between these two nations. Nothing wrong i say in trying to keep it the way it is.

No existing power or wanna be power would like parity with others in the region , its as simple as that. See in international diplomacy even if the outcome is not what we want it to be, trying for it till the last second is advisable.

As per the strong China-Pakistan relations, it doesn't mean that India should keep quiet thinking the deal a foregone conclusion, because we never know what surprises are in store. Also by making this statement maybe i mean maybe the government wants to see its leverage with the Chinese due to recent bonhomie between the two.

Well all Pakistanis would naturally say that India is waste or nothing in the eyes of Chinese and they (Chinese) help you and have been for last 60 years, but possibilities are present for a shift and also case by case sometimes priorities could change.

Those who think this as a bumbling effort or one with no use to make a fool of ourselves are living in wet dreams, since diplomacy is not a hard and fast rule. Effects of certain efforts are seen lately and are visible only to the discerning eye.
 
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What is world opinion?

It sure is not independent fact based belief or conclusion but rather what is fed to the general masses through media and government propaganda.

The world opinion was that Iraq had WMD's and could launch an attack on Europe within 45 minutes.

The world opinion was that Pakistan is going to collapse in 2009 and its nuclear weapons stolen.

World opinion is such that it can even cloud the mind of the most intelligent of humans. The reality is different to what is often presented, if we start to go by world opinion, we would be as good as dead because the common man does not know much about the tasks that matter.

I am not generalizing, I am presenting my opinion that will be shared by many people with similar background, you are presenting what is your opinion and in general the masses. So we both have our versions and realities that differ.

I appreciate for your sincere post.

But when I say world opinion then it always means the official stance of the government, Intel agencies and strategic analysts and NOT the general mass or media opinion. Regarding N-weapons development we may always counter each other's country but when it comes to analysis from neutral or 3rd party countries then ofcourse one have to take the measures. Please read following link:-
China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan

I am still not sure what stand Pakistan takes in terms of even the closest allys like US and China. When Pakistan is snubbed by US then they are going with the deal of China. Could you please enlighten why US even being WoT ally with Pakistan denied this deal and trying to derail Pak-China deal?

PS: I still stand with my point that what I say is wholly my opinion and can't be generalized as 115 crore's opinion until or unless I speak for GoI.
 
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T-Faz, Let me ask you this way

Why has US denied nuclear tech to Pakistan while allowing it to India? Why is US now opposing China Pakistan nuclear deal? After all Pakistan is not a small market by any standards

There must be some genuine reasons

Honestly speaking, it provided a nuclear deal to India to deepen the relations between both nations. US has its interests and when it gives something to someone, it expects a lot back and at a crucial time. The deal allows US to gain an important ally in Asia to counter a few countries in the region, specifically China. They knew we would never work against China so they went ahead with this important deal with your nation.

We would not work against China, US knows that and that is the reason why it switched sides to support India. Now when it came to us, they knew we would get something from somewhere, they resisted saying anything before but once the Iran sanctions passed, they showed their true colors.

Now I am going to mention another little known fact. US had initiated the TAPI pipeline negotiations and India was supposed to benefit greatly from it. Taliban held discussion with USG and UNOCAL and the plan was going ahead as laid out but another company jumped in and offered a better deal. Enron which was very dependent on this project had already spend a lot of money building Dabhol plant in India. The deal fell through and Enron collapsed, India was stuck in a quagmire and this could have resulted in a very serious energy crisis. Because US could not provide what they had promised, they instead went ahead with the nuclear deal because the TAPI pipeline even with US invasion had very bleak chances.

November 1993: Enron Power Plant Creates Demand for an Afghanistan Pipeline

The Indian government approves construction of Enron’s Dabhol power plant, located near Bombay on the west coast of India. Enron has invested $3 billion, the largest single foreign investment in India’s history. Enron owns 65 percent of the Dabhol liquefied natural gas power plant, intended to provide one-fifth of India’s energy needs by 1997. [INDIAN EXPRESS, 2/27/2000; ASIA TIMES, 1/18/2001] It is the largest gas-fired power plant in the world. Earlier in the year, the World Bank concluded that the plant was “not economically viable” and refused to invest in it. [NEW YORK TIMES, 3/20/2001]

1995-November 2001: US Lobbies India Over Enron Power Plant

Enron’s $3 billion Dabhol, India power plant runs into trouble in 1995 when the Indian government temporarily cancels an agreement. The plant is projected to get its energy from the proposed Afghan pipeline and deliver it to the Indian government. Enron leader Ken Lay travels to India with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown the same year, and heavy lobbying by US officials continue in subsequent years. By summer 2001, the National Security Council leads a “Dabhol Working Group” with officials from various cabinet agencies to get the plant completed and functioning. US pressure on India intensifies until shortly before Enron files for bankruptcy in December 2001. US officials later claim their lobbying merely supported the $640 million of US government investment in the plant. But critics say the plant received unusually strong support under both the Clinton and Bush administrations. [NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 1/18/2002; WASHINGTON POST, 1/19/2002]

1996-September 11, 2001: Enron Gives Taliban Millions in Bribes in Effort to Get Afghan Pipeline Built

The Associated Press will later report that the Enron corporation bribes Taliban officials as part of a “no-holds-barred bid to strike a deal for an energy pipeline in Afghanistan.” Atul Davda, a senior director for Enron’s International Division, will later claim, “Enron had intimate contact with Taliban officials.” Presumably this effort began around 1996, when a power plant Enron was building in India ran into trouble and Enron began an attempt to supply it with natural gas via a planned pipeline through Afghanistan (see 1995-November 2001 and June 24, 1996). In 1997, Enron executives privately meet with Taliban officials in Texas (see December 4, 1997). They are “given the red-carpet treatment and promised a fortune if the deal [goes] through.” It is alleged Enron secretly employs CIA agents to carry out its dealings overseas. According to a CIA source, “Enron proposed to pay the Taliban large sums of money in a ‘tax’ on every cubic foot of gas and oil shipped through a pipeline they planned to build.” This source claims Enron paid more than $400 million for a feasibility study on the pipeline and “a large portion of that cost was pay-offs to the Taliban.” Enron continues to encourage the Taliban about the pipeline even after Unocal officially gives up on the pipeline in the wake of the African embassy bombings (see December 5, 1998). An investigation after Enron’s collapse in 2001 (see December 2, 2001) will determine that some of this pay-off money ended up funding al-Qaeda. [ASSOCIATED PRESS, 3/7/2002]

June 2001: Enron Shuts Down Expensive Indian Plant After Afghan Pipeline Fails to Materialize

Enron’s power plant in Dabhol, India, is shut down. The failure of the $3 billion plant, Enron’s largest investment, contributes to Enron’s bankruptcy in December. Earlier in the year, India stopped paying its bill for the energy from the plant, because energy from the plant cost three times the usual rates. [NEW YORK TIMES, 3/20/2001] Enron had hoped to feed the plant with cheap Central Asian gas, but this hope was dashed when a gas pipeline through Afghanistan was not completed. The larger part of the plant is still only 90 percent complete when construction stops around this time. [NEW YORK TIMES, 3/20/2001] Enron executives meet with Commerce Secretary Donald L. Evans about its troubled Dabhol power plant during this year [NEW YORK TIMES, 2/21/2002] , and Vice President Cheney lobbies the leader of India’s main opposition party about the plant this month. [NEW YORK TIMES, 2/21/2002]

Please look at the whole picture and see how suspicious and murky everything is.
 
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indians object harpoon block2 p3c rd-93 f-16 AWACS refulers and every thing we buy but we got it

now please show me when pakistan even a single object on indian purchase?. go buy what you like we don't care.:lol:

Imran, Do you really want me to paste all the links of Pakistan's protest against Indian buying of wepons? Please google it, not a hard job.

Just to mention only one, Pakistan protested Indo-US deal and asked US to have on the same pattern. Denied by US, Pakistan went with China.
 
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I appreciate for your sincere post.

But when I say world opinion then it always means the official stance of the government, Intel agencies and strategic analysts and NOT the general mass or media opinion. Regarding N-weapons development we may always counter each other's country but when it comes to analysis from neutral or 3rd party countries then ofcourse one have to take the measures. Please read following link:-
China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan

I am still not sure what stand Pakistan takes in terms of even the closest allys like US and China. When Pakistan is snubbed by US then they are going with the deal of China. Could you please enlighten why US even being WoT ally with Pakistan denied this deal and trying to derail Pak-China deal?

PS: I still stand with my point that what I say is wholly my opinion and can't be generalized as 115 crore's opinion until or unless I speak for GoI.

US is not an ally of Pakistan, we use them at times, they use us at time, we both can provide each other with benefits that no other country can.

They asked us to expand into NA and even Afghanistan, we refused, we asked them a Nuclear deal, they refused.

China on the other hand is our true ally, they help us through thick and thin and have suffered humiliation as a consequence of it. US is very clever in its dealings, here is a excerpt from Defense Planning Guidance which outlines all the steps US will take.

US Not Interested in Long-Term Alliances - The document, which says the US cannot act as the world’s policeman, sees alliances among European nations such as Germany and France (see May 22, 1992) as a potential threat to US supremacy, and says that any future military alliances will be “ad hoc” affairs that will not last “beyond the crisis being confronted, and in many cases carrying only general agreement over the objectives to be accomplished.… [T]he sense that the world order is ultimately backed by the US will be an important stabilizing factor.” [NEW YORK TIMES, 5/23/1992] Conspicuously absent is any reference to the United Nations, what is most important is “the sense that the world order is ultimately backed by the US… the United States should be postured to act independently when collective action cannot be orchestrated” or in a crisis that demands quick response. [NEW YORK TIMES, 3/8/1992] Unger will write of Wolfowitz’s “ad hoc assemblies:” “Translation: in the future, the United States, if it liked, would go it alone.” [UNGER, 2007, PP. 116]

Preventing the Rise of Any Global Power - “[W]e endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union and Southwest Asia.” The document advocates “a unilateral US defense guarantee” to Eastern Europe, “preferably in cooperation with other NATO states,” and foresees use of American military power to preempt or punish use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, “even in conflicts that otherwise do not directly engage US interests.” [WASHINGTON POST, 3/11/1992]
Containing Post-Soviet Threats - The document says that the US’s primary goal is “to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union.” It adds, “This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to general global power.” In the Middle East and Southwest Asia, “our overall objective is to remain the predominant outside power in the region and preserve US and Western access to the region’s oil.” The document also asserts that the US will act to restrain what it calls India’s “hegemonic aspirations” in South Asia [NEW YORK TIMES, 5/23/1992] , and warns of potential conflicts, perhaps requiring military intervention, arising in Cuba and China. “The US may be faced with the question of whether to take military steps to prevent the development or use of weapons of mass destruction,” it states, and notes that these steps may include pre-empting an impending attack with nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, “or punishing the attackers or threatening punishment of aggressors through a variety of means,” including attacks on the plants that manufacture such weapons. It advocates the construction of a new missile defense system to counter future threats from nuclear-armed nations. [NEW YORK TIMES, 3/8/1992]

It does not want too see a self sufficient country that is hostile to it. We are a hostile nation and suppose we have the resources to sustain economically and militarily, we would hurt others. For that reason alone, US keeps us contained and under utilized.
 
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