Mystery cracked: Chicken came first

[ARCHON]

Please no creationism vs evolution vs intelligent design vs theistic evolution debate. Stating your opinion is one thing, but mocking others is rude. I am stating this beforehand as a cautionary message since I can guess that if the thread takes off, such unsavoury comments will surely come flying in. If you can then please avoid debating the issue altogether (stating opinion is different from debating).

Is it possible to debate the thread title without using the words creationism and evolution. If yes please elaborate.

 

[sparklingway]

Is it possible to debate the thread title without using the words creationism and evolution. If yes please elaborate.

Just not let the thread get ugly. That's my only concern. Things spiral out of control very easily.

 

[billi]

It's a gray area depending on definition. It's plain fricking evolution through natural selection. An animal similar to a chicken evolved through natural selection and out of it came the first chicken egg (if the modern day chicken has not micro-evolved much)

there are many in this forum that dont believe in evolution and natural selection.belief in science means set aside religion.

 

[sparklingway]

there are many in this forum that dont believe in evolution and natural selection.

But, of course.

belief in science means set aside religion.

I'm sure there are millions of scientists who have effective arguments against this statement and there have been many who have dealt with the issue both philosophically and empirically throughout history.

For me, it's just what's personally acceptable to you and that should involve searching for what you consider the ultimate truth yourself (considering you believe in the concept of ultimate truth). The search for the truth and reason takes people to many different conclusions through many different ways.

 

[Spring Onion]

Just a small question. So what?? if they found out which one comes first egg or the leg or the chicken. How does this costly finding helps or improves lives of human in anyway ??

 

[sparklingway]

Just a small question. So what?? if they found out which one comes first egg or the leg or the chicken. How does this costly finding helps or improves lives of human in anyway ??

They were mostly probably answering questions besides this one. Studying a protein would yield more than one answers and this is one of their hypotheses.

 

[Spring Onion]

They were mostly probably answering questions besides this one. Studying a protein would yield more than one answers and this is one of their hypotheses.

)) how will it help in improving Human lives ???? we already see the such evolutions have already created health problems and now even about these artificial chickens (broilers) these days, the doctors says we should avoid these.

We have already seen the result of cloning too

 

[sparklingway]

)) how will it help in improving Human lives ????

Every protein is worth studying. Any protein can yield some results that'll help fight diseases that chickens suffer.

we already see the such evolutions have already created health problems and now even about these artificial chickens (broilers) these days, the doctors says we should avoid these.

Bold, contentious and factually impossible to prove. Chicken being grown in tunnel-ventilated farms is one ethical thing, being harmful medically is a whole different issue. The medical problems associated with eating tunnel-ventilated and engineered chicken are not only contentious but are impossible to isolate and the issue is still at the edges of debate. There has to be far more evidence (as there is a serious lack right now) to reach an empirical conclusion that excessive use of anti-biotics on animals (ore even little) has harmful effects on humans. Besides, the blunt statement that engineered meat breeds are harmful has no grounds.

We have already seen the result of cloning too

No you haven't. Short precise statements on highly complex scientific topics are super unwelcome.

And where did cloning come into the debate from?

PS:- And I oppose tunnel ventilated farming and GM crops (to a certain extent) but countering a half-lie (not half-truth since that will imply that your statement was true in some sense) is necessary for objectivity.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Scientists solve chicken and egg riddle
By Hilary Whiteman, CNN
July 14, 2010

Researchers found a protein found in chickens speeds up the formation of eggs. So does that mean the chicken came first?
​

London, England (CNN) -- Researchers in Britain have been credited with cracking the age-old conundrum about the chicken and the egg. But are they right?

After the publication of the rather dry-sounding scientific paper, "Structural Control of Crystal Nuclei by an Eggshell Protein," press headlines proclaimed the answer was... the chicken.

However, one of the paper's lead authors, Colin Freeman, from the University of Sheffield in northern England, told CNN that the result was not as conclusive as it seemed.

"I would argue that the concept of an eggshell came about way before the chicken, it's dinosaur or even pre-dinosaur thing. That's something to talk to an evolutionary biologist about probably," he said.

So how did a paper about "crystal nuclei" become proof that the chicken pre-dated the egg?

Freeman and his team, which included colleagues from the University of Warwick, were researching a protein found in eggshells called ovocledidin-17. It is also found in chickens' ovaries, but until the team's research its purpose was not clear.

Using Britain's national supercomputer, a machine dubbed HECToR based in Edinburgh, Scotland, they were able to simulate the process of biomineralization, or the production of minerals or solid materials inside organisms.

It was a world first and revealed that one potential purpose of the protein ovocledidin-17 is to speed up the production of eggshell within the chicken so that in 24 hours an egg is ready to be laid.

"What we have really identified is that the protein seems to accelerate the crystallization process so it can make that eggshell appear far quicker. In simple terms it accelerates calcite formation," Freeman said.

They also found that the egg can't be produced without the protein ovocledidin-17 in the chickens' ovaries, so that means that the chicken must have come first. Right?

"Obviously, it's not really what we were trying to get out of our simulations, but it's an interesting question isn't it?" Freeman said.

Rather than putting an end to bickering over the true order of the egg, the researchers were trying to understand more about how shell is formed so that they can apply their findings in other disciplines, including medicine.

"The quote my colleague John Harding always says is, 'could we ever be as clever as algae?'" Freeman said.

"They produce these wonderful shells that protect them in the North Sea. That crystal structure is far in advance of anything that we as humans can create in the lab," Freeman said, adding, "We can't make a human skeleton in the lab..."

Perhaps one day they will be able to. And perhaps one day someone will conclusively put an end to the argument -- was it the chicken or the egg?

Scientists solve chicken and egg riddle* - CNN.com

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

Every protein is worth studying. Any protein can yield some results that'll help fight diseases that chickens suffer.



Bold, contentious and factually impossible to prove. Chicken being grown in tunnel-ventilated farms is one ethical thing, being harmful medically is a whole different issue. The medical problems associated with eating tunnel-ventilated and engineered chicken are not only contentious but are impossible to isolate and the issue is still at the edges of debate. There has to be far more evidence (as there is a serious lack right now) to reach an empirical conclusion that excessive use of anti-biotics on animals (ore even little) has harmful effects on humans. Besides, the blunt statement that engineered meat breeds are harmful has no grounds.


No you haven't. Short precise statements on highly complex scientific topics are super unwelcome.

And where did cloning come into the debate from?

PS:- And I oppose tunnel ventilated farming and GM crops (to a certain extent) but countering a half-lie (not half-truth since that will imply that your statement was true in some sense) is necessary for objectivity.

Is it ethically right to mingle with mother nature .. ??
I read in IEEE magzine that somehow the gentically engineered food is contagious and it has created those new domain of diseases and contagious biochemicals in human body which were never found a century ago.
So can the protein study be used to make medicines , diseases in the form of alien viruses and bacterias or should i say super bio-chemical weapons that could wipe out the human race .

sorry but i cant help deducing apocalyptic ends...

 

[Zeluvaa]

Just a small question. So what?? if they found out which one comes first egg or the leg or the chicken. How does this costly finding helps or improves lives of human in anyway ??

"Rather than putting an end to bickering over the true order of the egg, the researchers were trying to understand more about how shell is formed so that they can apply their findings in other disciplines, including medicine." (from above posted article)

As Sparklingway mentioned, the study was not conducted for such unavailing thing as proving what came first. They were studying a protein and the possibility for it being used in different fields.

And studies or disciplines like these may not seem particularly useful to many, but they do yield beneficial results. After all many useful technologies/advancement have come out of space exploration/military/etc

Oh and btw, none of the chicken or egg came first IMHO, they evolved gradually over a long period of time, until the genetic changes accumulated to the genotype we look at today.

 

[sparklingway]

Is it ethically right to mingle with mother nature .. ??

Can ethical philosophers answer your question in one sentence? No. It's a complex issue filled with positive and negative payoffs.

I read in IEEE magzine that somehow the gentically engineered food is contagious and it has created those new domain of diseases and contagious biochemicals in human body which were never found a century ago.

IEEE? I hope you read it somewhere else since I don't expect IEEE to be authoring papers or publishing news in its magazines on anything other than electrical and electronics engineering and their related subfields. I hope it was some medical journal

So can the protein study can be used to make medicines , diseases in the form of alien viruses and bacterias or should i say super bi chemical weapons that could wipe out the human race .

I'm pretty sure that's one harmless protein since it's necessary in eggshell growth and therefore not a weapon.

sorry but i cant help deducing apocalyptic ends...

That comes natural to humans.

 

[Kinetic]

Whatever but i like both ammi and uski beti very much

I like take on both at a time

The one you order first will come first

Good.