My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar

[GURU DUTT]

Upgraded LCA as one member was suggesting & Rafael

why not an extended order of almost 160+ upgraded LCA with an enlarged belly for at least 450+ Km fighting radius , a latest ASEA with good Air to Air and Air to ground capability , a decent EW suite , a pair of conformal over the wings kinnda feul feul tanks + a couple of wingtip mounted and a couple more under the wing pylons, IRST which wil be quite conceavable by indian scientist

and say 60-80 MKIsed SU 35's with lasest ASEA, Israeli EW suites , OLS/IRST & a mix of Israeli, Indian and russian wepons

 

[Ping]

i am 100 percent sure of kickbacks here

who will pay for 100 million 4.5 gen plane??

even silent eagle costs lesser than this with way more stealth and super powerful aesa

What do you mean 100 million? Dont get fooled by fly away costs. The entire deal, EXCLUDING weapons, MLU, regular fuel and maintenance costs is MORE THAN 20 BILLION DOLLARS!

ВЕДОМОСТИ - Интервью - Эрик Траппье, президент и гендиректор Dassault Aviation
- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion?

- No, it's much more.

Lets assume 'Much more' is 25 billion. So for 126 planes, a single Rafale's cost is 198.5 million dollars!(including ToT and assembly setup costs but EXCLUDING weapons, MLU, regular fuel and maintenance costs)

 

[he-man]

here is the article which clearly says that we need 40-45 improvements. We can't just buy anything which doesn't suit us.(also I believe that fgfa won't be inducted before 2021-2022 irrespective of what article says. Russians have a history to delay things. And almost everything have been delayed by 2-5 years recently)
Why India's futuristic fighter won't fly till 2019 - Rediff.com News

i have followed pakfa since begining and know everyth

What do you mean 100 million? Dont get fooled by fly away costs. The entire deal, EXCLUDING weapons, MLU, regular fuel and maintenance costs is MORE THAN 20 BILLION DOLLARS!

ВЕДОМОСТИ - Интервью - Эрик Траппье, президент и гендиректор Dassault Aviation
- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion?

- No, it's much more.
Lets assume 'Much more' is 25 billion. So for 126 planes, a single plane's cost is 198.5 million dollars!

fuccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

 

[rockstarIN]

i will tell u what he will say

1)rafale is gonna replace mirage 2000 and jaguar as it has potent ground attack ability

2)spectra is just awesome,there is nothing like it(laughable)

3)IAF knows best

the problems here are

1)pakfa's side facing aesa are dedicated for ground mapping and attack

2)pakfa has way more passive sensors than rafale

3)iaf didn't test pakfa vs rafale or even su-35 vs rafale

No matter what anyone says here the fact is due to limited sise of rafale radar and its unserpowered engines it will not standup to competition post 2020 

the problem is lca will never get strike capability

if we cancel rafale we will start taking early delivery of pakfa somewhere in 2018 and thats worse for paf 

we cannot get more lca's as its not good enough quite simply.

we can go for upgraded su-35 with pakfa electronics.with pakfa aesa and sensors it will kick anything's arse. 

as already told u ...........the times have changed,,,,,,pakfa will have very good air-groung capability and we are not getting 5 aesa radars for no reason

Ok, Let me tell you first that I was supporting the mighty EF in MMRCA competition.(though nothing against Rafale)

I think they went got Rafale coz of,

-Its A2G (Ya Russians got it but not much capability as west in stand off capability, e.g Chinese air defense is very strong, you need good stand off weapons to beat it)
- Trust me, FGFA will not in Indian colours before 2022, delays will be there for sure.
- Its engines supposed to be have double the life time than Russian engines.
-More sortie rate, less maintenance compared to Russian jets apart from more mileage. 

What do you mean 100 million? Dont get fooled by fly away costs. The entire deal, EXCLUDING weapons, MLU, regular fuel and maintenance costs is MORE THAN 20 BILLION DOLLARS!

ВЕДОМОСТИ - Интервью - Эрик Траппье, президент и гендиректор Dassault Aviation
- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion?

- No, it's much more.
Lets assume 'Much more' is 25 billion. So for 126 planes, a single plane's cost is 198.5 million dollars!

thats the life time cost, not fly away costs.

 

[he-man]

Ok, Let me tell you first that I was supporting the mighty EF in MMRCA competition.(though nothing against Rafale)

I think they went got Rafale coz of,

-Its A2G (Ya Russians got it but not much capability as west in stand off capability, e.g Chinese air defense is very strong, you need good stand off weapons to beat it)
- Trust me, FGFA will not in Indian colours before 2022, delays will be there for sure.
- Its engines supposed to be have double the life time than Russian engines.
-More sortie rate, less maintenance compared to Russian jets apart from more mileage.

ok u are right in comparison with mki but u have to compare it with su-35

1)engine life of mki is only like 1500-2000 hours but product 117 of su-35 has 4000 hours life
stage 2 engine will have abobe 6000 hours

2)i am not batting for fgfa but pakfa that will start in 2018

 

[帅的一匹]

Rafale is just too expensive for India to afford under recent economic crisis.

 

[he-man]

Ok, Let me tell you first that I was supporting the mighty EF in MMRCA competition.(though nothing against Rafale)

I think they went got Rafale coz of,

-Its A2G (Ya Russians got it but not much capability as west in stand off capability, e.g Chinese air defense is very strong, you need good stand off weapons to beat it)
- Trust me, FGFA will not in Indian colours before 2022, delays will be there for sure.
- Its engines supposed to be have double the life time than Russian engines.
-More sortie rate, less maintenance compared to Russian jets apart from more mileage. 



thats the life time cost, not fly away costs.

here is the link

On February 19, 2008 the Su-35 aircraft powered with 117S engines successfully performed its first test flight. The specified engine performances were proved during rigorous bench and flight tests. Russian Ministry of Defence is the launch customer for 48 Su-35.

Advantages
The 117S engine thrust has been increased by 16% (up to 14500 kgf) compared to the base AL-31FP engine, the ultimate life has been increased twice (up to 4 000 hours), keeping the same weight and overall dimensions. Such high parameters are attained thanks to application of:
• new high-tech LP compressor with increased air consumption and efficiency
• high efficiency turbine with increased reliability and improved blade cooling system
• new digital engine control system integrated to aircraft flight control system

Specification (H=0, M=0, MCA)
Engine117S
Maximum afterburning thrust, kgf 14 500
Combat mode thrust:
• full afterburning thrust, kgf
• maximum dry thrust, kgf
14 000
8 800
Ultimate service life, h 4 000

NPO "SATURN" > 117S

 

[Ping]

thats the life time cost, not fly away costs.

That includes cost of ToT assembly setup and training HAL. That life time cost they claim, does it include fuel cost, MLU and spares in that calculation? i dont think so. And even if it did, it means a lot of assumptions went into that.. unlikely to be closer to reality.

 

[rockstarIN]

1)engine life of mki is only like 1500-2000 hours but product 117 of su-35 has 4000 hours life
stage 2 engine will have abobe 6000 hours

Pak FA is like Su-27, we need to redefine it. Yes you can take delivery of few like we took Su-30s and return it later.

1)engine life of mki is only like 1500-2000 hours but product 117 of su-35 has 4000 hours life.
stage 2 engine will have abobe 6000 hours

I doubt it, any source? Russians still lag behind in this area and it is very maintenance savvy.

 

[GURU DUTT]

What do you mean 100 million? Dont get fooled by fly away costs. The entire deal, EXCLUDING weapons, MLU, regular fuel and maintenance costs is MORE THAN 20 BILLION DOLLARS!

ВЕДОМОСТИ - Интервью - Эрик Траппье, президент и гендиректор Dassault Aviation
- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion?

- No, it's much more.
Lets assume 'Much more' is 25 billion. So for 126 planes, a single plane's cost is 198.5 million dollars!

my point is why not invest 8 billion on LCA which with latest israeli ASEA, EW suite IRST , Pods & wepons will cost less then $50 Million per piece and around $85 million with MLU+ maintainence + feul

so 50 Million $s divided by 8000$s Million=160 Latest Upgrdaded LCAs

now 35 Million $s for feul+ maintainence X 160 =5.6 Billion s

even if you take latest israeli pods & wepons package per plane sepratelli it amounts to 15 Million $s

so 15 Million $s X 160 2.4 billion dollars

so if we add up the cost 8+5.6+2.4 =16 Billion $s still we save 4 Billion dollars on actual off the shelf rates of 126 rafale + wepons package = 20 Billion $s

so if one Latest SU35 costs even 120 million $s per plane with wepons we will have some 60 SU 35s for 7.2 billion

now add 16 + 7.2=23.2 which is still less than 25 billion deal for 126 rafales

so tell me is a combined high low mixture of 160(8 squads) of Latest LCAs + 60 (3 squads) of Latest SU 35 better or bad deal at 23 Billion Dollars than 126(7 squads) of rafale

 

[he-man]

Pak FA is like Su-27, we need to redefine it. Yes you can take delivery of few like we took Su-30s and return it later.


I doubt it, any source? Russians still lag behind in this area and it is very maintenance savvy.

i gave u link above man for su-35 engine 

Pak FA is like Su-27, we need to redefine it. Yes you can take delivery of few like we took Su-30s and return it later.


I doubt it, any source? Russians still lag behind in this area and it is very maintenance savvy.

are u serious??

pakfa is like su-27(laughable)

we need to refine it(even more so)

who is gonna refine it??
russians will at our request only and shaping has been freezed,only mission computers will be diff man
hal is way way inferior than sukhoi so we can only pay money for modifications and nothing else 

my point is why not invest 8 billion on LCA which with latest israeli ASEA, EW suite IRST , Pods & wepons will cost less then $50 Million per piece and around $85 million with MLU+ maintainence + feul

so 50 Million $s divided by 8000$s Million=160 Latest Upgrdaded LCAs

now 35 Million $s for feul+ maintainence X 160 =5.6 Billion s

even if you take latest israeli pods & wepons package per plane sepratelli it amounts to 15 Million $s

so 15 Million $s X 160 2.4 billion dollars

so if we add up the cost 8+5.6+2.4 =16 Billion $s still we save 4 Billion dollars on actual off the shelf rates of 126 rafale + wepons package = 20 Billion $s

so if one Latest SU35 costs even 120 million $s per plane with wepons we will have some 60 SU 35s for 7.2 billion

now add 16 + 7.2=23.2 which is still less than 25 billion deal for 126 rafales

so tell me is a combined high low mixture of 160(8 squads) of Latest LCAs + 60 (3 squads) of Latest SU 35 better or bad deal at 23 Billion Dollars than 126(7 squads) of rafale

these ppl have looted this nation for far too long

please go to my mirage 2000 upgrade thread and see the figures

 

[Ping]

my point is why not invest 8 billion on LCA which with latest israeli ASEA, EW suite IRST , Pods & wepons will cost less then $50 Million per piece and around $85 million with MLU+ maintainence + feul

so 50 Million $s divided by 8000$s Million=160 Latest Upgrdaded LCAs

now 35 Million $s for feul+ maintainence X 160 =5.6 Billion s

even if you take latest israeli pods & wepons package per plane sepratelli it amounts to 15 Million $s

so 15 Million $s X 160 2.4 billion dollars

so if we add up the cost 8+5.6+2.4 =16 Billion $s still we save 4 Billion dollars on actual off the shelf rates of 126 rafale + wepons package = 20 Billion $s

so if one Latest SU35 costs even 120 million $s per plane with wepons we will have some 60 SU 35s for 7.2 billion

now add 16 + 7.2=23.2 which is still less than 25 billion deal for 126 rafales

so tell me is a combined high low mixture of 160(8 squads) of Latest LCAs + 60 (3 squads) of Latest SU 35 better or bad deal at 23 Billion Dollars than 126(7 squads) of rafale

That's better. My motive is to keep costs low without falling into the American Fighter Aircraft Trap. We are not a rich country to be spending extravagantly. Besides, this country is scared of the very mention of the word war and is known to bend itself backwards to avoid it. SU-35.. its better if we drop that. IAF should have only 3 planes, MKI, LCA and Pak-fa after 2035.
We are not going to fight any war with the Chinese with the mindset prevailing in Delhi. And I doubt the Chinese would either.. risk destabilizing their precious economy which they flaunt every now and then. For the Pakistanis, our current fleet even excluding the MKIs is enough now. But Like I said, this country wont fight any wars for a long long time, unless the pakistanis do something stupid, which we are well capable of dealing with.

 

[GURU DUTT]

That's better. My motive is to keep costs low. We are not a rich country to be spending extravagantly. Besides, this country is scared of the very mention of the word war and is known to bend itself backwards to avoid it. SU-35.. its better if we drop that. IAF should have only 3 planes, MKI, LCA and Pak-fa after 2035.
We are not going to fight any war with the Chinese with the mindset prevailing in Delhi. And I doubt the Chinese would either.. risk destabilizing their precious economy which they flaunt every now and then. For the Pakistanis, our current fleet even excluding the MKIs is enough now. But Like I said, this country wont fight any wars for a long long time, unless the pakistanis do something stupid. which we are well capable of dealing with.

thats right buddy

pakistanies will attack India with proxies again and again they will not chnage "ye unki fitrat mer hai" so no war on that front just a few so called "non state actors" kinada ungli bazi from them and then a round of geedar bhabkian from spineless & ever tolrant indian side then a few rewards for india by world community and thats it

on chinese side a few intrusions and a meak protest by MOD and foriegn minitry in soutth block and buisness as usual

both china and pakistan kbnow that there hands are full on there other borders and there other enemies are just keeping low to have one serious go at them so they wont waste there energies on a INDO- Pak or Indo -china war as China has more to loose than to gain from a war with india and what india is to china pakistan is to india ..enof said

 

[Dillinger]

Still at it with banal comparisons sans knowledge of IAF's operational doctrine and why there are different weight classes of fighters to begin with...sigh..

 

[MKI 30]

@he-man

I agree with the points you made on the first page. As so i would like to know your opinion about the argument made everytime that we should not keep all eggs in one basket.

From whatever little i know i find IAF to be very satisfied with the French platforms hence in a way justifying the exorbitant upgrade of the Mirage fighter. Hence IAF maybe biased towards French platform in that sense. And i do agree with you on the Upgrades. I can't even imagine what that amount could be.

Do you think instead of Su 35 we could order more MKI? And then subsequently upgrading them to Super Sukhoi? What do you think about that?