My PAK-FA analysis

[Myth_buster_1]

Pros and cons.

Lets start with its new revolutionary sets of radars that give PAK-FA possibly one of the best situational capability!
This is one capability your fighter must have in future combat.


IMO the russians did not pay as much attention on stealth as Americans did with F-35 and F-22. IR and stealth design is not prominent in PAK-FA as in american stealth fighters, the intakes frame and flanker style engine layout are the prime examples.
And before any fanboy indians jump around, I am not saying PAK-FA is not stealthy but i will definitely disagree with parring it with F-35 or F-22 stealth technology.

 

[Super Falcon]

thanx for info sir

 

[jagjitnatt]

Yes, I really doubt it would be anywhere as stealthy as F22/F35. But it would really be a step ahead of the 4th gen we use now. F22 is all about stealth. It suffers in other aspects as low combat radius and low range. F35 is a combination of stealth and maneuverability.

According to my analysis:

Pakfa has a more powerful radar than F22.
F22 could be bout 25-60 times more stealthy than Pakfa.
Pakfa would be more maneuverable.
Pakfa is supposed to get newer much better missiles. But I don't consider it now. Will see when they get inducted.
Pakfa would require less maintainence.
Pakfa would be much cheaper.
Pakfa would have numerical superiority. We would have 200-250 Pakfa as against much lower number of F22.

That sums it up. I don't think Pakfa would ever go against a F22 or F35 unless Pakistan buys some F35 which considering the Pakistan's budget and its commitment to china for weapons doesn't seem to be.
Pakfa is not to counter Pakistani threat but to counter china. It would be pitted against the best of chinese fighters.

I hope my analysis helps. Suggestions are welcome but no trolling.

 

[Kinshuk]

Pros and cons.

Lets start with its new revolutionary sets of radars that give PAK-FA possibly one of the best situational capability!
This is one capability your fighter must have in future combat.


IMO the russians did not pay as much attention on stealth as Americans did with F-35 and F-22. IR and stealth design is not prominent in PAK-FA as in american stealth fighters, the intakes frame and flanker style engine layout are the prime examples.
And before any fanboy indians jump around, I am not saying PAK-FA is not stealthy but i will definitely disagree with parring it with F-35 or F-22 stealth technology.

Ya not at par with Raptor but may be F-35. And regarding Engines layout AESA etc, you must not forget its not the final design. Now both the countries will invest and accordingly it will be developed.

Secondly even if it is not at par with F 35 also but still surely better than Euro Fighter.

From India's point of view, it is the best India can have.

We must remember India is not going to war with America, and if we see any adversary India gonna face, No one will even have EF in South East Asia (if it doesn't win Indian MMRCA), leave F-22 and F-35 alone.


From Russia's point of view, ya though it is very early to predict or comment but if it's ain't better than F-35 then Seriously It is a lax effort from Russians.


Don't feel free to disagree. Lol!!!

 

[Kinshuk]

Why are we boasting about Raptor when none of us are going to have one??

In fact even Lockheed would produce it to the sanctioned level only. It is on hault.

 

[Contrarian]

Since a lot of members commented on the engines, let me clarify one thing here.

The engines currently used in the plane are interim engines designed for Su-35 and uprated. The engines which are going to be actually used on the plane, which have been built ground up for the plane, are still under development.

Russia apparently made a prototype and found that the actual thrust was inadequate, so were IR reduction techniques they tried to incorporate. Their current technology(then) was inadequate to make the engines of the desired level.

This was in news circa 2006-7. Reported even in magazines like Force.

This plane in itself is something between a TD and a prelim prototype. So expect a LOT of changes to occur. Going by Russian way of constantly building new prototypes incorporating more and more changes to the design, PAK-FA is a LONG way off from actual production. This is the first prototype. Make your own calculations.

There's a LOT of news articles stating that it would get inducted by 2017. I dont think that is possible, considering the state in which this plane is right now. The plane is not likely to commence production-let alone induction, before 2020. So expect by that time, the actual engine for this plane would have been developed so would the new generation of Russian munitions.

One more thing-Russia is going ahead with its military modernization, it is going to buy a lot of Su-35's, which are going to be its mainstay for the next 15 years. IAF is also buying Su-30MKI's, which are going to be its mainstay till 2020 -25. Heck MKI is going for an MLU in 2012-13.

There is no pressing need to induct a PAK-FA at this point for either Russia or India considering what potential rivals have.

Neither Russia nor India would be placing orders for Su-35/MKI nor India for the MKI, if PAK-FA was to start getting inducted in 2017.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

-Pakfa has a more powerful radar than F22.
-F22 could be bout 25-60 times more stealthy than Pakfa.
-Pakfa would be more maneuverable.
-Pakfa is supposed to get newer much better missiles. But I don't consider it now. Will see when they get inducted.
-Pakfa would require less maintainence.
-Pakfa would be much cheaper.
-Pakfa would have numerical superiority. We would have 200-250 -Pakfa as against much lower number of F22.

- It may have more radars but you simply can not judge anything when you do not have specs at your hands. At most PAK-FA radar technology is comparable with F-35 considering massive R&D F-22 cost and they are not going to simply produce something that can be over taken by 10X less R&D PAK-FA project or any other.
- Maneuverability only counts when your opponent has no JHMCS no 5th generation IR AAM like Aim-9X and under powered aircraft like F-4. This is not the case with F-22. F-22 may not be able to amaze the audience in air shows with its fancy dare devil stunts but when it comes to serious business F-22 simply not a plane to mess around with. It has all necessary maneuverability to out turn opponent and find itself in a better position to that stunt plane down. Basically america does not give any significant importance to maneuverability like russians do.
-newer and better missiles? how do you know that they are going to be better then American technology? your speculations is mostly based on patriotism. I dough Russia is going to have any edge at all over superior american systems. Russia's arms parity with america is no more since 1990s after fall of USSR.
A simple logic is. America can not have a inferior quality or capability A2A missiles when even a developing country possess one.
-Pak-FA less maintenance? In which respect? As far as I know, American engines have the longest self life. This statement is absurd.
-Yes PAk-FA is much cheaper but at expense of lesser technology when compared to F-35 and F-22.
-PAK-FA numerical superiority? Against who? Pakistan? yes.
Aganist China, probibly not as they may produce well over 1000 5th generation fighters.
Against America. defiantly not. US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates proposed speeding up production for the US to buy 2,443 F-35s. 150 out of 180 F-22 have already been produced.
so thats about 2,700 US 5th generation fighters vs 250+250=500 IAF RuAF PAK-FA.

That sums it up. I don't think Pakfa would ever go against a F22 or F35 unless Pakistan buys some F35 which considering the Pakistan's budget and its commitment to china for weapons doesn't seem to be.
Pakfa is not to counter Pakistani threat but to counter china. It would be pitted against the best of chinese fighters.

Chinese J-xx is the only option for PAF and PAF may consider developing a stealthy but not a stealth version of JF-17s to sneak around IAF non stealth fighters and give them tough time.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

One more thing-Russia is going ahead with its military modernization, it is going to buy a lot of Su-35's, which are going to be its mainstay for the next 15 years. IAF is also buying Su-30MKI's, which are going to be its mainstay till 2020 -25. Heck MKI is going for an MLU in 2012-13.

I highly dough MKI will be given MLU anytime soon. a final deal may be finalized in couple of years but IAF can not simply afford to phase out 20-30 million dollars worth of equipment when they have hardly hardly clocked 1/3 of their service life. I hope common sense prevails.

 

[gogbot]

PAF may consider developing a stealthy but not a stealth version of JF-17s to sneak around IAF non stealth fighters and give them tough time.

JF-17 does what is was supposed to do,

Provide Cheap, easy to maintain and advanced Multi role capable Fighter aircraft. At 15 million each , it does that.

Its not a make it whatever you want plane. It has it limitations and strong points.

Making it a stealth aircraft would mean you have to completely change the aircraft. Completely change the plane.

You have spent good majority of the last few days arguing why the PAk-FA is not good.

Now your saying the JF-17 can be adapted to do what it can do just like that.

Even if you make the airframe stealthy , Get an advanced engine. Reduce IR and RCS and get an AESA radar. You still need to find a way to put an internal weapons bay on the plane.

And if you are thinking about just reducing RCS, Well you can never reduce it enough to make any sort of difference due weapons.

And By the time such an aircraft is even developed.

AESA radar staple IAF. So what exactly is the point.

J-XX is the only alternative and you have to wait till you get it.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

^^^

Gogbot he never meant a true stealth plane & you have reached internal weapons bay , even French didnt went for a 5th Gen plane, why. because their theory was to develop a plane which will incorporate features of 5th gen & has low low observability, he's trying to say that we must reduce the RCS as much as possible & French avionics are already on the way i hope we go for Spectra EW suite, this will make JF-17 a decent a 4.5 Gen A/C, I hope so

Growler you can make people........

 

[gogbot]

I highly dough MKI will be given MLU anytime soon. a final deal may be finalized in couple of years but IAF can not simply afford to phase out 20-30 million dollars worth of equipment when they have hardly hardly clocked 1/3 of their service life. I hope common sense prevails.

Its an aircraft with a service life of 25-30 years.

MKI was inducted in 2000
2014-15 will be the appropriate time for an upgrade.(MLU)

100+ MKI set to be upgraded.

Common sense would indicate that it is time for Mid life upgrade.

 

[gogbot]

^^^

Gogbot he never meant a true stealth plane & you have reached internal weapons bay , even French didnt went for a 5th Gen plane, why. because their theory was to develop a plane which will incorporate features of 5th gen & has low low observability, he's trying to say that we must reduce the RCS as much as possible & French avionics are already on the way i hope we go for Spectra EW suite, this will make JF-17 a decent a 4.5 Gen A/C, I hope so

Growler you can make people........

whats the point point of reducing the RCS except to increase the price and costs of maintenance.

You are just completely negating the point of purchasing the JF-17 in the first place.

Provide Cheap, easy to maintain and advanced Multi role capable Fighter aircraft. At 15 million each , it does that.

If you wanted to pay for stealth characteristics on something do it on a higher performance aircraft Like the F-16 or FC-20.
They can make best use of the increased survivability.
Putting such things on the JF-17 is simply not cost effective

 

[jagjitnatt]

- It may have more radars but you simply can not judge anything when you do not have specs at your hands. At most PAK-FA radar technology is comparable with F-35 considering massive R&D F-22 cost and they are not going to simply produce something that can be over taken by 10X less R&D PAK-FA project or any other.
- Maneuverability only counts when your opponent has no JHMCS no 5th generation IR AAM like Aim-9X and under powered aircraft like F-4. This is not the case with F-22. F-22 may not be able to amaze the audience in air shows with its fancy dare devil stunts but when it comes to serious business F-22 simply not a plane to mess around with. It has all necessary maneuverability to out turn opponent and find itself in a better position to that stunt plane down. Basically america does not give any significant importance to maneuverability like russians do.
-newer and better missiles? how do you know that they are going to be better then American technology? your speculations is mostly based on patriotism. I dough Russia is going to have any edge at all over superior american systems. Russia's arms parity with america is no more since 1990s after fall of USSR.
A simple logic is. America can not have a inferior quality or capability A2A missiles when even a developing country possess one.
-Pak-FA less maintenance? In which respect? As far as I know, American engines have the longest self life. This statement is absurd.
-Yes PAk-FA is much cheaper but at expense of lesser technology when compared to F-35 and F-22.
-PAK-FA numerical superiority? Against who? Pakistan? yes.
Aganist China, probibly not as they may produce well over 1000 5th generation fighters.
Against America. defiantly not. US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates proposed speeding up production for the US to buy 2,443 F-35s. 150 out of 180 F-22 have already been produced.
so thats about 2,700 US 5th generation fighters vs 250+250=500 IAF RuAF PAK-FA.


Chinese J-xx is the only option for PAF and PAF may consider developing a stealthy but not a stealth version of JF-17s to sneak around IAF non stealth fighters and give them tough time.

chill dude. its all speculations. there are people who right now claim Pakfa is crap. just like pakfa, even f22 has never been in an aerial engagement. nobody knows how good its stealth is. It has never been exposed to anybody outside. And just for a second, think why has it been scraped in the first place. Is it really the price? If it was so, they could have slowed its production down. Instead of 2500 F35 they could have afforded 1200 F22. After all, the US is the biggest economy. I am not saying pakfa is better than f22. I know it isn't.
All I am saying is it is not impossible for Pakfa to shoot down an F22.
Even a Su30 can shoot F22 but with a ratio of 5:1 or something like that favoring the F22 of course.
It doesn't matter if the rcs is 0.001 or 0.01 or even 0.1, its still difficult to detect. And that is what is required. You can go down to 0.0000001 m2 but it won't help any good and that is what happened to F22. F35 stealth is not better than F22 but is good enough. We intend to do the same with Pakfa. I hope I can reach you.

American missiles are better. No doubt about it. But radar wise we gotta think otherwise. The Su30 radar is almost 5 times heavier than an F15 radar. Its PESA right now. Still very very effective.

Also more powerful the radar, more are the chances of detecting a plane even with a smaller rcs. About the reliability part. Yeah they are reliable. But maintenance is a different thing. They are more reliable but require more maintenance after every flight. Also it requires much more money. There are articles all over the web describing how maintenance heavy F22 is.

Just my 2 cents.

peace...

 

[foxbat]

- It may have more radars but you simply can not judge anything when you do not have specs at your hands. At most PAK-FA radar technology is comparable with F-35 considering massive R&D F-22 cost and they are not going to simply produce something that can be over taken by 10X less R&D PAK-FA project or any other.
- Maneuverability only counts when your opponent has no JHMCS no 5th generation IR AAM like Aim-9X and under powered aircraft like F-4. This is not the case with F-22. F-22 may not be able to amaze the audience in air shows with its fancy dare devil stunts but when it comes to serious business F-22 simply not a plane to mess around with. It has all necessary maneuverability to out turn opponent and find itself in a better position to that stunt plane down. Basically america does not give any significant importance to maneuverability like russians do.
-newer and better missiles? how do you know that they are going to be better then American technology? your speculations is mostly based on patriotism. I dough Russia is going to have any edge at all over superior american systems. Russia's arms parity with america is no more since 1990s after fall of USSR.
A simple logic is. America can not have a inferior quality or capability A2A missiles when even a developing country possess one.
-Pak-FA less maintenance? In which respect? As far as I know, American engines have the longest self life. This statement is absurd.
-Yes PAk-FA is much cheaper but at expense of lesser technology when compared to F-35 and F-22.
-PAK-FA numerical superiority? Against who? Pakistan? yes.
Aganist China, probibly not as they may produce well over 1000 5th generation fighters.
Against America. defiantly not. US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates proposed speeding up production for the US to buy 2,443 F-35s. 150 out of 180 F-22 have already been produced.
so thats about 2,700 US 5th generation fighters vs 250+250=500 IAF RuAF PAK-FA.


Chinese J-xx is the only option for PAF and PAF may consider developing a stealthy but not a stealth version of JF-17s to sneak around IAF non stealth fighters and give them tough time.

Sir

I dont think PAK-FA is supposed to compete with F 22. So the comparison is a little apples and oranges. From both Russia and India's perspective, it is a counter to Chinese Airforce's J 17/10/xx
In my view on the Pakistan Side India will primarily field 29s, some MKIs and some MMRCAs and and the old Mig fleet that will get replaced slowly by the LCA..

 

[DaRk WaVe]

whats the point point of reducing the RCS except to increase the price and costs of maintenance.

You are just completely negating the point of purchasing the JF-17 in the first place.

i personally don't think that the reduction of RCS( say some modification in air frame ) would increase the cost by that much, if you won't bring some amendments in JF-17 then what will be idea behind the BlockII
may be i am wrong

If you wanted to pay for stealth characteristics on something do it on a higher performance aircraft Like the F-16 or FC-20.
They can make best use of the increased survivability.
Putting such things on the JF-17 is simply not cost effective

Modification of F-16 out of question & as for FC-20, its Specifications are not out yet