Muslim narcissism feeding terrorism

[Abu Zolfiqar]

AZ

If you are genuinely interested in the phenomenon, please pick up a copy of " The Logic of Collective Action" by Mancur Olson -- I guarantee you will be richly rewarded, to begin with you will have a deeper understanding of why minorities succeed where majorities will always fail

Anyway, what do you make of Ms. Bukhari's piece above

i "sympathise" with a lot of her views.....truth is, we do have a bad habit of pointing fingers rather than introspecting. It's a bad habit, one at our own peril and detriment.

We are far from perfect. Pakistan is still a young country. Look at a developed country like the USA. They had to go through tea party movements, Boston massacre, Civil war, slavery/segregation (leading up to civil rights movement); they had to deal with the Mccarthy era --which was a very dangerous period in the country.

they've been through helluva lot more than we have, and that is why they are RELATIVELY more mature than we are (in some ways believe it or not i think we are ahead -- e.g. family values)

I dont subcribe to the "deductionist" approach of labelling members of our armed forces as jihadists or jihadist sympathisers. That's a pure nonsense. The training imparted doesnt allow for that. And if there are such elements in the armed forces, they ought to be removed and choose other paths in life. True soldiery does not involve politics or emotion to get in the way.


we need to recognize our faults......we need to correct them. We should use this dark period in our history in a productive way. Some may simply see it as a sad period in Pakistan's slightly troubled history. But why not see it as an educational period as well.


What Pakistan has been enduring for the past few years ---no other nation on the earth could ever endure. They would have collapsed, the people would be decaying. Whereas Pakistanis have shown incredible resilience in the face of natural as well as manmade disasters (some which were imposed on us and beyond our locus of control to stop them -- while others (a good number of them) we brought upon to ourselves)


we need to get our priorities in order......and countries (nearby and far away) should cooperate and be useful, rather than add to the problems.




as for minorities in Pakistan --- they are as much Pakistani as the 'majority' .......their patriotism has been displayed time and time again, and anybody who dares question someone else's faith or beliefs should be ridiculed. Live and let live.


because in the end --- united we stand, divided we fall. Only we can be our best advocates.

 

[muse]

We are far from perfect. Pakistan is still a young country. Look at a developed country like the USA. They had to go through tea party movements, Boston massacre, Civil war, slavery/segregation (leading up to civil rights movement); they had to deal with the Mccarthy era --which was a very dangerous period in the country.

AZ

We, Pakistan are dealing with something unprecedented --- There is no precedent for what we are going through -consider these :

It is no longer enough to say, “misinterpretation of religion”. Who are the guardians, the true interpreters of religion? All sects claim authenticity over others. Every sect, or even person, I would say, is authentic in his or her interpretation because, at the end of the day, religion is belief. Belief is so unsubstantial by definition, that another variation of unsubstantiated theory cannot hope to counter, leave alone vanquish it.

If you start with belief, or supposition, how can you possibly then identify the correct or incorrect intention, interpretation, objective, practice or purpose of a belief system, a system unfounded on proof, logic or reason? All the millions of people, or hundreds of sects, who believe they can convince the other, are living in a fool’s paradise and condemned to eternal conflict. One ‘belief’ cannot win over another belief — unless by the sword.

Religion has been allowed to run amok in this country, to freely arouse emotions — and abandon reason and humanity — and is treated as if it were the ultimate, incontrovertible, disprovable, scientific, supreme truth. Not only that, it has, horrifically, been allowed to become the basis of the legal framework of this country. How in the world is mere belief accorded more deference than reason, dialogue and consensus reached judgment?

What modern nation state has or is going through something like this Hobbesian nightmare (Levithan)

It's just really incredible, look, even when you converse with these Islamist types, you do it in their idiom, from their frames of reference, you've lost before you've even started - I think for most of us, the realization that we are in the last days of Jinnah's Pakistan is not yet upon us, but in reality it is upon us --- as for that army, well, we counted on it to protect us, instead it unleashed the monster that is making a meal of us, so yeah, loved the Fauj and Fauji, but what an incredible fcuk up this Fauj is, well - lets leave that for a moment -- back to the last days of Pakistan.

 

[President Camacho]

Even in India, muslims blame jews for their ills, they have never seen a jew nor met him. May be due to the friday prayer meetings.
Most hindus wont even know what a jew is, ask any hindu he will give a blank face.

Last year a couple of my Turkish friends came for a visit around Christmas time. While driving around one evening, they noticed the big gates of some apartment complexes were adorned with lights in the shape of the six point star.

They asked me if only Jews lived in those apartment. I told them that in India, barely anyone knows that this is star of David and is a symbol of Judaism and that they just put them up there for Christmas. And that in fact, not more than 2-3 Christian families might be there in those complexes.

Since it was quite a curious case for them, and they also took some pictures to show back home in Turkey, we got down and asked the gatekeepers at one such apartment complex as to why the six point star and not 5 point one? His short reply was - It is easier to put those lights up in 6 point star design than the 5 star one as it takes only a couple of wooden triangles to support those wires.

No surprises... my friends video recorded the reply too

 

[salvage]

these are all mind games being played by media funded by foreign evil forces....a big game is being played in our neighbourhood and the game was launched by david bin gurion father of israeli occupation when he declared Pakistan arch rival....america funded and armed these people during soviet occupation of afghanistan...so its only russia that invaded afghanistan or america who armed people in afghanistan to fight invaders responsible for all this.We are only victims and target of secular extremists who receive funds from children of ben gurion so that his gay wet dream can be realised.
before 9/11 Pak-Afghan border was the safest border on this planet,,,look at it now...Dick Cheney's illegal war has brought our country to this point.
All this time they were saying there are no good and bad talebans and later it turned it out all this time they had been negotiating with good talebans

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Well, the radicals do not even adopt a accommodating attitude towards Muslims, let alone other cultures -- What is it in the radical ideology that ensures that the radical is at war with all and in particular with the Muslims??

The radicals despise Pluralism in Islam - Pluralism in Islam confuses them, because it is a challenge to their "truth" -- and acceptance of pluralism is the foundation of tolerance.

The author said that the Muslim people have generally been hesitant in self criticism and have not subjected the history of their civilization to critical observation and a sickening self love and self aggrandizement have been their driving passion which is behind the tendency to look down upon all cultures and civilizations which
they aim ultimately at destroying in order to establish the supremacy of the Islamic way of life.

You may have read the lead article but I don't think you understood it because you've just done what the Author contends Muslims have become adept at, being uncritical of themselves and always, always, placing the blame for their ills on others -- in your case it's Christians and Jews -- and that's rather curious because as a Pakistani you have not been fighting Christians and Jews, but then again, wanna be Arabs, have to also internalize the so called struggles of the arbi super Muslims, who are Arbi first and then Muslim.

Sums up the malaise that has caused the turmoil, mentally, psychologically and physically amongst many!

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Hi,

and what about the civilian govts. like that of ZA Bhutto who was the one credited for bending over to the mullah brigades?

that declaration you sign on your passport (you know which one I'm talking about) --- that was enacted under his civilian govt. (the one in which martial law was still in place DESPITE the fact that the Army Chief tried to convince him to repeal it)

as for Fauj --- tell me when they didn't protect (or do their best) to protect Pakistani Nation? Find me one time when they were selfish and/or willingly and knowingly compromised security of Pakistan....even one time. Please.

As for Jinnah Sahib's Pakistan -- well, you and I and any true nationalist will agree that we need to revive his vision for the country. I'm a moderate and an ultra-progressive (not to be mistaken for a liberal fascist type whom i despise as much as i despise the fanatical bigots hiding behind religion).

I treasure, I celebrate the ideals and vision he had for the country. Suffice to say, we have gone astray. I want Pakistan to be again what it was in 1960s --a beacon of light, a symbol of progress.....the nation many others looked up to.

I'm sure that's what any true Pakistani wants. How to get there is the question.



electing the right damned leaders would be a damned good start....and Pakistanis also need to dust off their shoulders and become more proactive, instead of wishing things away.

Being lazy and wishing only wont achieve anything, nor will learned helplessness.

 

[desioptimist]

Hi, are you generalizing?


Generalizing's a big NO-NO!

No I am not generalizing. Probably I misunderstood the topic of discussion.

 

[muse]

Being lazy and wishing only wont achieve anything, nor will learned helplessness.

Excellent - it's the sword for all - no, I'm not kidding - consider what Ms. Bukhari says:

If institutions of the government are not willing to act of their own volition, then society has to force government to clamp down on those catapulting religion from the sphere of personal spirituality into public and political spheres with disastrous consequences for the entire polity.

Society has to force, for example, the courts of law in this country into taking notice of religiously motivated hate speech that inspires young impressionable minds into killing sprees. If society does not recognise its own pernicious radicalisation in the garb of religion, piety and goodness and take steps to correct it, it will be doomed to implode, with no one else to blame.

AZ, you know the "paradox of tolerance" - we all want to be tolerant of each other, but can we tolerate those who want to finish us off, to put an end to Jinnah's Pakistan? Of course we cannot - but this is not clear to our civilian leaders nor to our armed forces, they imag8ine they will be able to ride this tiger and they might be able to, but what of the ordinary Pakistani and his property?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Very illogical views, let me get this stright.

Christians and Jew planes are flying over Libya, Afghanistan , and Iraq and now Pakistan - and Muslims should be criticizing our own seleves that this is happening becasue we brought this on to ourselves.

lol What an idiotic Hypothesis.

The reason why this mess is here is following reasons

a) Breaking of Ottoman Empire into 20 states , run by warlords by Britain and Allies
b) Supplying of weapons by US against USSR again thru proxy leaders
c) Acceptance of Military dictatorships in Muslims countries - as long as the contracts go to Western Allies Corporations
d) Minipulation of ellections to ensure people like Hosni Mubarak and many others are tolerated because they support certain governments

Muslims Narcisim has not to do with it

Muslims world wide are in perpetual slavery - world wide , we happen to be the second generation of enslavement
We of course were already under Brtish enslavement if it was not for German WW2 probbly we would still be subjects of Prince Williams and his family.


Extremism is now a problem that arose after a neglect of 2 generations , for 2 generations over 70-80 years of abuse by world on Muslim matters , example Palestine - Kashmir , and countless others have reached a boiling point that alot of people no longer trust their governments

Why is there no trust?

Why people like Hosini Mubarak and others are running with their American underwear looking for a place to die in pieace ?

huh ...

The root cause of problem cannot be overlooked -

Muslims do not seek to impose their will on anyone , but at present - we are being bombed and then called as collateral damage, world wide.


And we should stand for our rights as oppose to keep applauding West and say "THANK YOU" for bombing our cities and civilizations - and "THANK YOU" yes we deserved it - so you can come and destroy our infrastructure it is us we needed that wake up.

What a joke while mitantcy , and terrorism is a problem - but it has nothing to do with Muslims

The soliders are created by Western Civilization , and its now handing out collective punishment

Muslims have been abused for good 70-80 years - after world war 1 , and our people are just starting to wake up
and kicking and beating out currupt pupets in Egypt , Tunisia and other places -

Should you be afraid HELL yeah ... we have been abused and we are not taking more of it as people - its your turn to kiss up - Muslims won't be doing none of it - we got our shoes out and pucker up


This drama that western goverments launched in Libya , after the Arab awakening - was just to show that they are still in power - and they will beat down anyone - it was a show of power - lead by Britain and USA of course plus to split the oil revenues and resources , same strategy 20-30 warlord mercinaries give them a flag and support them with airforce -

This whole Lawrance of Arabia crap is becoming too old , we had enough of this none sense

In end , while - its true there lies a many social evils on Muslim socities but 90% of it is brought upon us via circumstances that are not in our control

I think Muslims have full right to SHOW their displeasure , at governments - at all institues of power who do not respect the wishes in proper legitimate means -

So what should , western civilizations do ?

Simple - stop abusing others its not rocket science

 

[Valiant_Soul]

I don't think there is more bias against any religion than Islam among secular intellectuals.

And why do you suggest that is?

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Muse, to whom do these words belong to?

It is no longer enough to say, “misinterpretation of religion”. Who are the guardians, the true interpreters of religion? All sects claim authenticity over others. Every sect, or even person, I would say, is authentic in his or her interpretation because, at the end of the day, religion is belief. Belief is so unsubstantial by definition, that another variation of unsubstantiated theory cannot hope to counter, leave alone vanquish it.

If you start with belief, or supposition, how can you possibly then identify the correct or incorrect intention, interpretation, objective, practice or purpose of a belief system, a system unfounded on proof, logic or reason? All the millions of people, or hundreds of sects, who believe they can convince the other, are living in a fool’s paradise and condemned to eternal conflict. One ‘belief’ cannot win over another belief — unless by the sword.

Religion has been allowed to run amok in this country, to freely arouse emotions — and abandon reason and humanity — and is treated as if it were the ultimate, incontrovertible, disprovable, scientific, supreme truth. Not only that, it has, horrifically, been allowed to become the basis of the legal framework of this country. How in the world is mere belief accorded more deference than reason, dialogue and consensus reached judgment?

 

[somebozo]

Another pathetic loser writes a book about Islamic history. We don't look down upon anyone however Islam has taught us purity which is often lacking in any other culture. Ardent eaters of dirty swine should not compare themselves. Purity does not come by washing one self with half dozen different soaps daily.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The biggest problem with the Authors , view is that his view is constricted by a duration of last 10-13 years.

He fails to view the real picture that surrounds Muslims , a broken Muslim civilization from 1912`s , 20-30 dead states , created with no civil structure , and states that has some sort of ambitions their progress was halted in favor of government heads that supported , Non Nationalistic approaches to their resources , selling out good for pennies

Where do we begin ?

Do I start at how , British and allied forces conned arabs into betraying Ottoman empire , a nation that was passing reforms and setting up new revenue generation schemes at time of the war , with their latest ambition was setting up of a grand railways system.

Do I begin how , Palestine was stolen away , with weaponry supplied from West , and full support provided to its illegal occupation - ignoring countless women and children and Men of all ages murdered. Was that also due to Islamic Narcisim perhaps ?

Or should I go an talk about , how a young nation who got their freedom from cluthes of ruthless British masters , we got land in which WE CRAMMED UP millions and millions of people , instead of getting a proper land for our population we were given few states and East Pakistan the most unlikeliest of seperation by British - on top of that we were given limited funds !!! at time of our existance. Was that also Muslims Narcism on top of that all our leadership vanished in first 4-5 years.

Perhaps - Muslims should be blamed because countless , Muslim leaders in their nations were assasinated for not cooperating with International World Powers.

Where do we begin ?

a) King Faisal ( For supporting Pakistan, Muslim Unity , Does anyone recall why we named Faisalabad after him)
b) Iranian democratic leader in favor of a Monarch
c) Saddat , who took back control of Suez cannal from Intruders assasinated as well
d) Liaqat Ali Khan
e) Zulfiqar Bhutto (Initiating nuclear weapons program in Pakistan at height of Industrial poweress in Pakistan)
f) Countless people in Algeria - and in algerian lands the west also conducted nuclear weapons testing that was also due to Islamic Narcism I suppose
g) 40 year rule of Hosini Mubarak supported by USA , to curb Muslim democracy from taking hold 1 party ellections funded by USA


The real CANCER in Islamic Civilization - is Western Influence , and minipulation , let it be called Lawrance of Arabia syndome , or the Ramond Davis aspect , where Money and guns are used to over throw popular governments - in shadoes of diplomatic Immunity.

Elements , we see today " The EXTREMIST " - the "ISLAMIST" are nothing more then figment of imagination of Western Psyche

They have been on a rampage to steal resources, killing leaders, over throwing governments , double dealing and trying to bring change with briges and money , and stinger missiles -

There is nothing wrong with Islamic faith nor its values.

The problem we face is due to past 40-80 years of neglect our educational institues have erroded , and jobs are not present the infestation of this state has given birth to b child of weat which is Talibans now running rampant.

What we need to do is not sit and hide instead our goal should be to take control of our own territories !! COMPLETE CONTROL


What I feel after reading such views as expressed with the author is

a) Sure you have been abused accept things as they are and smile and forget
b) Do not seek answers from your faith its your own fault that you were punched or kicked for past 80 years
c) It was your own fault being a muslim - because , muslims are not librals if they were they would not complain

The answer is "NO"

MUSLIMS have a right to change our governments
We have the right to protect our lands
We have a right to protect our allies world wide
We also posses the right to refuse any international force close to our borders by debate or force


What right does the Western civilization has to install Monarchs over Muslims lands ? NONE
I mean do Muslims demand that President Obama stand down , we let King Williams be the King of USA no ...
Then why do Western counter parts wangt to setup Monarhs in Bahrain , and rest of Middle east or Morocco ?

If the AWAKENING is deemed as being narcissist lol then I suppose we are Narcissist - but more and more people will awake from their slumber - and realise it when western bombs are falling on their own homes it would be interesting to see what this author writes when bombs fall on his own home , and then next day he reads in news paper that a mistaken bomb fell on home and killed 20-30 people by error

If we set three goals
a) SELF RESPECT
b) Moderate / Educational View of our faith (Which is simply reading Quaran and hadis) islam is never extreme
if it was there woudl be no jews alive
c) Protecting our allies world wide

Muslims would not be a rag doll that is being kicked around - and no WE SHOULD NOT BLAME OURSELVES for it becasue we are the ones being abused daily