Musharraf's Interview On CNN From Last Night

[PostColonial]

This whole "India is about to attack us" charade is absurd. India will not and cannot occupy Pakistani territory (assuming that it defeats the Pakistani army) without murdering half the population, who are fed to the gills with anti-India ideology anyways.

The worst India can do is conduct surgical strikes on the terror camps operating in Pakistani Kashmir and elsewhere. Is that really so bad? Aren't you already enduring the same thing on your western border?

 

[extinct]

Was having a few nukes positioned in Cuba such a "crisis"... when did the USSR really fly a few sorties over the US that required immediate scramble over the US skies... perception my friend, perception... its all in the head or whatever your five senses inform you of... the "existential threat" is in the eye of the beholder...

USSR may have "liberated" a few US states just like India would love to "liberate" a few districts and/or provinces of Pakistan, i.e. given the choice and you would ask where is the proof to this "consipiracy theory", well Ms. Gandhi said and in no less of hidden words...

Bangladesh was once part of Pakistan that was chopped off by India... India never conquered Bangladesh it just "liberated" it once the ripe opportunity arose (an opportunity that inept Pakistani politicians provided), maybe it wants a few more "banana republics" in its neighborhood... today some might tell Pakistanis "Bangladesh was never part of Pakistan, maybe its all a collective hallucination you had"... Pakistanis know what existential threat is to them... just like a few advanced "fireworks" in Cuba were to the US...

When the word allies does not cross beyond europe and abruptly starts again around Japan and Australia then the divide of "us" and "them" becomes clear, this is a marriage of convenience, to be annulled after a little "fun", like soon after 1988... History tells that Pakistan NEVER betrayed the US in the hour of need (willingly or otherwise) but the opposite is not so true... And I truly understand why not, its just a lack of common interests and nothing more, which is precisely how any nation should conduct diplomacy and alliances to further its agenda, no questions to that in my mind atleast...

As I said there is a huge deficit of trust in this equation and us writing these words would not make any difference... Books are written on this topic and we all read whatever we feel is the "real" history anyway... to stoke our ego and firm our points of view... and the silver linning, well, that makes the publishers richer...

 

[extinct]

maybe I am not the only one thinking about the "do more" question as a two way road...

http://http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/37395-other-side-must-do-its-job-pakistan-rasmussen.html

 

[Slides]

By the way Karzai is your best bet, because he is kinda cute.

What the h*ll?

 

[SSGPA1]

The worst India can do is conduct surgical strikes on the terror camps operating in Pakistani Kashmir and elsewhere. Is that really so bad? Aren't you already enduring the same thing on your western border?

That is happening with the permission of the GoP, bsides there are no terrorists in Azad Kashmir. If the right of determination is terrorism then Bhagat Sing and Suk Dev etc were the biggest terrorists.

 

[S-2]

Disappointing and dissembling response centered on long-dead ghosts of your distant past and events that transpired in 1962 and 1971 respectively.

As to Afghanistan and 1988, more dissemblance thus absolutely avoiding the two points I made.

STEERED right around them.

That's fine. Your lot to do as you see fit. It's my responsibility to do what I can to assure that my government doesn't underwrite such while you've considerable available internal resources that remain undirected to your central and active threat.

All perfectly accurate and I didn't even require the rhetorical discussion about B.D. or Cuba.

The distrust shall therefore remain when I read the myriad cynical responses to our money and good faith found here. You want a relationship which we'll underwrite, you'll exploit, and we'll trust to remain as such-nothing more.

Thanks but I prefer an honest enemy over a capricious and deceitful friend. I hope, too, my government shall see likewise. In the interim, you may accept our aid and its conditions or not. I pray for as much forthrightness from both your government and mine as I see displayed here from your peers and myself.

In this instance, I don't believe that the legitimate interests of either constituency are being fairly represented. Our conditions suggest that we might slowly be learning such at higher levels or that the need to ignore such is fading. Maybe both.

 

[fatman17]

S-2,
your over-simplification of indo-pak situation is based on what? - it just dosnt work the way u r proposing in reality - look at history - u r a history buff and a good one at that.

 

[asq]

^we r missing the point here - imposing "american-style" democracy is not going to work as the "soviet-style" marxism-leninism system failed. until or unless the traditional tribal culture is not restored, this country will remain un-governed,(as its history indicates).

currently reading a very interesting book on the soviet invasion of afghanistan in the 80s with a russian perspective, written by a american author (Gregory Feifer of NPR) who migrated to moscow and was given un-precedented access to soviet archives and key players.

the name of the book is "The Great Gamble" details about the soviet invasion of afghanistan under operation "Storm-333"

more later.....

this book also talks about ww11 and the bombing of french cities by allies, if I am nit mistaken, he called the bombing a genocide but retracted and said it was a grave blunder.

 

[asq]

I am glad that Musharaf has brought the point of micromanaging, he should have also streessed the fact that Pakistan has spent many more billions than us or european has ever given Pakistan.

Pakistan has spent all that money that could have been used on education, infrastrcture, on health sytem and on general upkeep of Pakistan and it people. Pakistan has bent over back ward to fight this war and all Pakistan hears is nit picking and objactions from arm chair critics.

I hope those who doubt Pakistan sincerity will learn from his interview and give respect to Pakistan that it deserves for a job well done and sacrifices it made which are more than anyone else in the war on terror did, it is a noble cause and should be noted as such. Contributions made by Pakistan should be appreciated and honor must be given to pakistan by world media where it belongs.

 

[pakdefender]

This whole "India is about to attack us" charade is absurd. India will not and cannot occupy Pakistani territory (assuming that it defeats the Pakistani army) without murdering half the population, who are fed to the gills with anti-India ideology anyways.

The worst India can do is conduct surgical strikes on the terror camps operating in Pakistani Kashmir and elsewhere. Is that really so bad? Aren't you already enduring the same thing on your western border?

lol @ allowing india to do 'surgical strikes'

try it an watch your country go up in smoke

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thanks but I prefer an honest enemy over a capricious and deceitful friend.

So does Pakistan - which was my point, the perceptions on both sides of the other mirror each other.

US public opinion about Pakistan is just as poisoned (fed by pseudo-factual articles and analysis about 'diversion of aid' and the ISI bogeyman supporting the Taliban) as is Pakistani public opinion about the US (fed by pseudo-factual articles and analysis about the US supporting the TTP or allowing the TTP and other insurgents to be supported and undermining Pakistan to eliminate or diminish its nuke program).

So your oft voiced pontifications of 'they are the enemy' based on that hostility displayed by Pakistanis towards the US, applies just as well for Pakistan, when viewing the hostility and dissemblance on display in the US media and public opinion.

I'll respond to your response to me later.

 

[asq]

This Lahore blogger makes some interesting suggestions:

New Idea: Let's Open Pakistan's Borders for 48 Hours
Wednesday, October 21, 2009
e_scape fr0m nowher_e

Floating a new idea out there, since nothing else seems to be working for Pakistan these days I don't think it'll hurt to try. Since apparently these days Pakistan has become a hornet's nest infested with terrorists, goons, and baddies of all sorts, and now that even Iran wants to go after militants linked with a suspicious Jundallah organization; I think Pakistan should just swallow a bitter pill and forsake their cherished sovereignty for 48 hours, let anyone who has beef with the terrorists come in, deal with their issues in whatever manner they like and then leave politely before the stipulated time is over.

For one, this policy would save the Pakistani security forces a lot of trouble running after obscure terror outfits squatting in their badlands. As an added bonus, we'd be able to have cordial relations with all our neighbours after all our bickering issues are sorted out. India can take care of LeT for us, NATO and the Afghan Forces, united as one primal entity, can usher those gruesome Uzbeks, along with those Arab, and North African militants out of our hair, and Iran can help clean up the whole mess in Baluchistan.

Sure it'll be a two day long, extremely intense, four-way fornication ritual, but we will be cleansed once and for all after it's finally over. We'll be able to become bum-chums with India finally (or as some Indians would put it, "Chaddi Buddies), and would even be able to open the borders (since no baddies would be going the other side of the border anymore) and cut down the twelve figure overinflated defense bill we get annually. We could invest that money in liberal institutions, and welfare and all those other fun things democracies need to have. Also, the whole world wouldn't be pissed at us anymore, and we would once again gain acceptability as a productive member of the "international community".

Considering what we've been through over the past two decades trying to cure ourselves of this infection we contracted when the winds of the cold cold war blew ferociously through these parts. I think we should just admit that we have more than we can chew on our plates, swallow our pride and just fling the gates wide open (for stipulated time only, terms and conditions apply)...

The guy also blogs for Dawn. Check out his latest offering. Amusing to say the least:
http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/10/23/terror-terror-everywhere/

Istead of pressing quote I pressed tanx wrongly, anyhow, your point makes no sense.

NATO has been trying this for 8 years in Afghanistan and now tells us that t.b are controlling more than 80% of Afghanistan, what makes u think that India can do it if opportunity provided.

If India is serious about becoming a friend than an adversary to Pakistan it should start by not dwelling on Bombay attack as a job by GOP and take it as it is, a kashmiri group trying to give u what u been dishing them out for 60 years.

And come clean with all other matter that need to be settled by discussion and not by being bully, matters such as Kashmir. water etc etc.

if this is done than this will be signal to Pakistan that India wants to be a good neighbor and I am sure Pakistan will reciprocate likewise and more.

After all, we the Pakistani have high moral ground as we are true to our convictions, causes and have very caring nature.

 

[extinct]

Thanks but I prefer an honest enemy over a capricious and deceitful friend.

I could have not said it better my friend...

This mistrust and suspicion is at the bed-rock of these "allies" (transactional) relation, but none of it is Pakistan's doing...

You find Pakistan capricious and deceitful after risking its neck (nuclear annihilation anyone?) during a certain "U2 flight" at the zenith of the USSR's power, then shredding its socio-cultural fabric during the Russian misadventure followed by suffering embargoes in "downtime" of the relation; wait till you experience the Indian "partnership" in a few years... if Pakistan could not satisfy your standards, I'd like to be the fly on the wall when the Indians show you their ways...

We remain poles-apart; though I completely comprehend where you are coming from, Over-simplification of current and/or historical issues coupled with a perenial suspicion leaves no common ground...

As I said in an earlier post, in the US, who-so-ever has more lobbiests wins whether he is selling needles/matches/smokes to toddlers (hyperbole intended for contrast)... shaping public opinion through media finishes the job... as for you and I, well, we all regurgitate whatever is fed to us through our preferred media anyway...

Thanks...

 

[S-2]

"but none of it is Pakistan's doing... "

Gee, you're so victimized...

...by yourselves.'

" I'd like to be the fly on the wall when the Indians show you their ways"

I think you'd be well-served by taking a few lessons from India yourselves. What WAY are they showing?

How to turn your back, inch by painful inch, from their neo-socialist self-inflicted wounds to a market-based mercantile economy that's slowly making affordable to them the life you'll never see by holding yourselves (and the rest of us) hostage to self-immolation.

Of course, you COULD continue to possess a state whose existance is to serve your army and, in so doing, never afford the true defense you so desperately desire.

As example, just imagine for a moment a FATAville self-sufficient and too busy to spend time in near-perpetual nihilist irhabism, poverty, and despair while contributing to a tax-base that makes affordable your nat'l defense instead of looking to others to underwrite hundreds of thousands of useless soldiers staring uselessly east awaiting...

...nothing.

Those guys have moved beyond. Maybe someday so shall you. Couldn't be soon enough but the rest of us know better than to hold our breath waiting.

Thanks.

 

[rajeev]

Istead of pressing quote I pressed tanx wrongly, anyhow, your point makes no sense.

NATO has been trying this for 8 years in Afghanistan and now tells us that t.b are controlling more than 80% of Afghanistan, what makes u think that India can do it if opportunity provided.

If India is serious about becoming a friend than an adversary to Pakistan it should start by not dwelling on Bombay attack as a job by GOP and take it as it is, a kashmiri group trying to give u what u been dishing them out for 60 years.

And come clean with all other matter that need to be settled by discussion and not by being bully, matters such as Kashmir. water etc etc.

if this is done than this will be signal to Pakistan that India wants to be a good neighbor and I am sure Pakistan will reciprocate likewise and more.

After all, we the Pakistani have high moral ground as we are true to our convictions, causes and have very caring nature.

I think my friend before you achieve self-prophesied high moral ground, you need to look into mirror.

In 1999, when both countries signed up for resolving all the outstanding issues, which country attacked and tried to capture Kargil? Oh, I thought it was Mujaheddin. No wait, it was the Northern Infantry that got wiped out and their morally high-standing government wont even claim their body! Pathetic.

Not to Dwell on perpetrators who have attacked Mumbai - great suggestion? Ofcourse, why should they? The morally high-standing government are busy attacking another part of country that foreign countries have issued travel warnings to tourists coming to India so that the busy terrorists in Pakistan can attack India.

The curse of living beside Pakistan is so high that if there was a possibility to physically move the land away from terrorist infested land many Indians will endorse the idea - atleast the cost is just one time only!