Mullen & Kayani Attempt to Salvage US-Pak Relationship

[VCheng]

You have no argument other than to keep regurgitating the same tired bit about the 'weak rolling over and begging for scraps from the US and doing whatever it pleases'.

You are upset at me for stating the obvious?

The whole world sees the behavior of Pakistan as "weak rolling over and begging for scraps from the US and doing whatever it pleases" for decades now! Thank you for describing it so succinctly for me.

Illustrating your argument for what it is and exposing you for who you are is not 'hot headed rhetoric', it is an honest and clear assessment.

Your naivete amuses me. My stance has never needed any kind of "exposing". It is true and straightforward, and will continue to remain so.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are upset at me for stating the obvious?

I am pointing out that you have nothing to offer intellectually or constructively.

'Might is right' was evident to the Neandarthal man - mankind, societies and nations progress and become stronger by bucking that dynamic in whatever way they can. You therefore are nothing but yet another millstone around the necks of the weak.

The whole world sees the behavior of Pakistan as "weak rolling over and begging for scraps from the US and doing whatever it pleases" for decades now! Thank you for describing it so succintly for me.

Actually we have always managed to get some of what we want along with delivering some of what the US wants. Developing nuclear weapons, continuing contracts with China for establishing more NPP's despite US and NSG objections, putting in place factions that were less of a threat to Pakistan in Afghanistan, and managing to get aid out of the US at times too.

Nice of you to express in a manner only a Pakistan hater would though.

Your naivete amuses me. My stance has never needed any kind of "exposing". It is true and straightforward, and will continue to remain so.

Dear sir, you have no 'stance' - you merely argue for the weak to remain weak, downtrodden and at the mercy of the powerful. You are the evil that perpetuates feudalism, oppression and tyranny, by weakening the hearts and minds of those who would rise up against injustice and oppression with your so called 'stance with their best interests at heart'.

 

[VCheng]

Nice of you to express in a manner only a Pakistan hater would though.

You do realise, I merely quoted YOUR OWN WORDS!

Dear sir, you have no 'stance' - you merely argue for the weak to remain weak, downtrodden and at the mercy of the powerful. You are the evil that perpetuates feudalism, oppression and tyranny, by weakening the hearts and minds of those who would rise up against injustice and oppression with your so called 'stance with their best interests at heart'.

Eloquent but naive and misguided words Sir. Like I have stated elsewhere, I will continue to ignore your perosnal attacks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You do realise, I merely quoted YOUR OWN WORDS!

'My words' were a representation of your argument and position, not an endorsement of it. You chose to happily endorse that interpretation, which clearly illustrates your particular bias and loyalties.

Eloquent but naive and misguided words Sir. Like I have stated elsewhere, I will continue to ignore your perosnal attacks.

There is nothing naive and misguided about my interpretation of your position - it boils down to precisely what I stated. You have nothing to offer intellectually or constructively given your world view.

To make things easier, just copy paste the following on every thread related to US-Pakistan disagreements:

'The US is more powerful, Pakistan should just shut up and do exactly what it says'.

Denuded of the verbosity you typically employ, other posters can see clearly what you represent, and not waste time with you.

 

[Ajaxpaul]

His govt.'s reps. are sitting down with Taliban emissaries to discuss power-sharing as we speak, and have been for some time. ankeh baraye tu halalash, digar ra haram shud?

Reason for that is:

 

[VCheng]

To make things easier, just copy paste the following on every thread related to US-Pakistan disagreements:

'The US is more powerful, Pakistan should just shut up and do exactly what it says'.

Denuded of the verbosity you typically employ, other posters can see clearly what you represent, and not waste time with you.

Obviously I hit a nerve that made you start deleting my posts and continue to call me names, but since you are an administrator here, that is fine by me, as you are one of the team that is supposed to set standards here.

The text in bold should be more appropriate as follows:

The US is more powerful, and Pakistan would be well advised to get its its own house in order by working diligently on the basics of civil society, so that other nations give weight to what it says and does.

The feeling of wasting time is mutual Sir, I am sorry to say. However, I do intend to continue in the face of personal attacks and abuse of authority.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The text in bold should be more appropriate as follows:

The US is more powerful, and Pakistan would be well advised to get its its own house in order by working diligently on the basics of civil society, so that other nations give weight to what it says and does.

thats more like it

thanks for re-phrasing its shows that you are above the typical emotional rants and insults that are used just to show the extent of emotions in our part of the world. continued self loathing will result in equal and proportionate reaction by everyone else who happens to have a difference of opinion from yourself lets not take away that right from the admin and mods as well.

I must commend that you did put and effort conveyed your massage in a more constructive and intelligent way.

The feeling of wasting time is mutual Sir, I am sorry to say. However, I do intend to continue in the face of personal attacks and abuse of authority.

I must say, the mods and admin team of this forum is by far the most lenient, liberal and professional I have come across so far. For the past ten years I have gone through scores of forums and this one is by far run by the best team. don’t take my word for it. Google it and see where it is ranked.

Coming to this same annoying subject, I am growing tired my self, if I ignore the subject of the thread, the content of the posts is the same, starts the same way and then is descends into same ranting by usual posters key words being (drones, CIA, sovereignty, ISI, slave, beggars, master, RD, Saudi Utopia, Caliphate and all that). I don’t know how many threads are needed to show how upset we are and why posting insults and self loathing in the past 3 or 4 threads was not enough and every time CIA farts & spills new “evidence” to its American media, our disgruntled emotional police “MUST” respond in KIND and start the thread with self loathing.

 

[VCheng]

thats more like it

thanks for re-phrasing its shows that you are above the typical emotional rants and insults that are used just to show the extent of emotions in our part of the world. continued self loathing will result in equal and proportionate reaction by everyone else who happens to have a difference of opinion from yourself lets not take away that right from the admin and mods as well.

I must commend that you did put and effort conveyed your massage in a more constructive and intelligent way.




I must say, the mods and admin team of this forum is by far the most lenient, liberal and professional I have come across so far. For the past ten years I have gone through scores of forums and this one is by far run by the best team. don’t take my word for it. Google it and see where it is ranked.

Coming to this same annoying subject, I am growing tired my self, if I ignore the subject of the thread, the content of the posts is the same, starts the same way and then is descends into same ranting by usual posters key words being (drones, CIA, sovereignty, ISI, slave, beggars, master, RD, Saudi Utopia, Caliphate and all that). I don’t know how many threads are needed to show how upset we are and why posting insults and self loathing in the past 3 or 4 threads was not enough and every time CIA farts & spills new “evidence” to its American media, our disgruntled emotional police “MUST” respond in KIND and start the thread with self loathing.

IB: Thank you so very much for the kind post. I really appreciate it.

I think that AM and I both understand each other a whole lot better now. All is well from my point of view, and I hope to be able to participate as impartially and logically as I am able to, no matter what.

My motivation lies partly in the realization that getting angry, upset or emotional is counterproductive. My words may seem callous to some, but once one goes over their meaning calmly, they will begin to make sense to point where my intentions and methods will be more evident and trustworthy. Or at least that is what I hope.

 

[muse]

War on terror: Military seeks formal deal on intelligence sharing with US
By Sumera Khan
Published: April 24, 2011

Message conveyed to US govt in meetings between Pak-US military officials.
ISLAMABAD:

In a significant development Pakistan’s military has decided to have a formal agreement between Pakistan and the United States on intelligence-sharing and cooperation in the ‘war against terrorism’, The Express Tribune has learnt.

The message has been conveyed by Pakistan’s military brass in their recent interactions with senior US military officials in Islamabad and Washington, military sources said.

Military sources told The Express Tribune that Pakistan and the United States have been sharing intelligence since 2001, but without any formal agreement.

Pakistani and US military officials have had a series of meetings this month to resolve differences that have not only undermined military-to-military ties but have also strained diplomatic relations between the two countries.

Earlier this month, ISI chief Lieutenant-General Ahmed Shuja Pasha met CIA head Leon Panetta in Washington, then chairman of US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen had meetings with his Pakistani counterpart General Khalid Shameem Wynne and Army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani in Rawalpindi, and then US Army Chief of Staff Gen Martin Dempsey met Gen Kayani.

The pursuance of a formal agreement comes as there is now a feeling among Pakistan’s top military officials that the US has not taken them into confidence on several issues, including Raymond Davis. Raymond Davis, a CIA agent, had been sent to Pakistan on a mission to spy on the Taliban leaders and their jihadi cohorts.

Though last month a court freed Davis after the payment of ‘blood money’ to the families of the victims, the presence of armed CIA agents in Pakistan has frustrated the Pakistani military.

The Davis saga showed the US military’s ‘mistrust’ of Pakistan, which was later substantiated by Admiral Mullen’s allegations last week that some elements in the ISI had links with the Haqqani Network.

Military sources told The Express Tribune that a formal agreement was required to restore dwindling confidence between the two countries.

It has also been conveyed to the US administration that, after a formal agreement between the two countries, all CIA contractors would have to leave Pakistan.

US military officials have assured Pakistan’s civilian and military leadership that they would take up the matter with the US administration and that a formal agreement would be finalised with mutual consent.

 

[Awesome]

America, Go home. Ties would improve then.

 

[muse]

Asim

There is no doubt that they have to go home -- but for ties to improve, they must go home in such a way that we do not see a repeat of the 90's - not because it's bad for US but because it will impact Pakistan the most - check out the editorial by Dr. Lodhi and Mr. Leiven.

 

[manava]

Asim

There is no doubt that they have to go home -- but for ties to improve, they must go home in such a way that we do not see a repeat of the 90's - not because it's bad for US but because it will impact Pakistan the most - check out the editorial by Dr. Lodhi and Mr. Leiven.

could you please provide link for the editorial referred in the above post.

 

[VCheng]

America, Go home. Ties would improve then.

AA: Fair enough. But please elaborate as to why the USA would make the efforts to improve ties when there is no shared national interest goal?

Or are you implying that the best US-Pak relation are NO relations at all?

 

[muse]

Better no relations than hostile relations - don't you you agree?

 

[VCheng]

Better no relations than hostile relations - don't you you agree?

I would agree with that, assuming Pakistan can be weaned off the historical precedents.