Mughal Emperors

[ranjeet]

None, British/Indian historians tried hard to bury crimes of Mughals against Hindus/Sikhs but no matter how much make up one puts on a pig, it'll still remain a pig.

 

[scorpionx]

Heck No. Babur was opium addict not Humayun. Research him, read up on him and you will understand what i mean.

While Babur had been generous in mentioning about his fondness for opium and wine in his memoirs we simply have no proof that he was an addict per se. Opium eating and wine drinking was a traditionally wide spread practice in Central Asia and both Babur and Humayun were no exception. In fact, Humayun's affection for opium had brought criticisms from his contemporaries like Mirza Haider Dughlat who thought it was opium that caused Humayun's downfall.
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I am not sure on what basis we can do a just comparison between all these rulers as all ruled in different periods, faced different kind of troubles and of different degrees, while the administrative system remained more or less same as a fusion between the existing traditional system of governance and the Perso-Arabic import from outside. But personally I like Babur because of his military genius, administrative skill, affection for poetry, art and concern for minute details of the nature in his Tuzuk. He had a rare mixture of qualities that his successors gradually lost.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

While Babur had been generous in mentioning about his fondness for opium and wine in his memoirs we simply have no proof that he was an addict per se. Opium eating and wine drinking was a traditionally wide spread practice in Central Asia and both Babur and Humayun were no exception. In fact, Humayun's affection for opium had brought criticisms from his contemporaries like Mirza Haider Dughlat who thought it was opium that caused Humayun's downfall.
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I am not sure on what basis we can do a just comparison between all these rulers as all ruled in different periods, faced different kind of troubles and of different degrees, while the administrative system remained more or less same as a fusion between the existing traditional system of governance and the Perso-Arabic import from outside. But personally I like Babur because of his military genius, administrative skill, affection for poetry, art and concern for minute details of the nature in his Tuzuk. He had a rare mixture of qualities that his successors gradually lost.

Couldnt agree more in regards to second part of your post. If only his successors could update the administrative system and military system, a lot would ve been different. Though the Mughal fortunes kept on rising for the next 100 years. The seeds of stagnation were sown at the very start.
Administrative , social and introduction of proper education system during Jehangirs or Shah Jehans reign would ve changed everything.


As for the first part, i would ve to read again and from different sources. The ones i read before had no mention of Humayun being addict. Though there were mentions of him using.

Babur and Humayun, they know the meaning of struggle.. rest were born with Golden spoons.

Exactly my opinion. I would add Aurangzeb in that list too. He did struggle to keep it together.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. Nothing wrong with having multiple consorts.
2. Not answering as you are looking for something in my words that i did not intend at all. As i said my problem with them is purely related to extravaganza and problems borne out of it.

Then you did a pretty bad job of presenting your views. Based on your own words, there is a distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims with regard to preference; while the one might implicitly consider advancement as a given, the others would get it on just deserts. If you did not mean it, it is not clear what the religious reference meant.

3. They forced a rising empire into stagnation. No New Laws were formed. I would go in detail but as it happens i have exam in 60 mins.

Fascinating.

Under Akbar, we had a polishing and a refinement of Sher Shah's reform of the land revenue system, a truly remarkable effort that stood the test of time, until British bungling made a thorough mess of things. But that is, in your view, stagnation, and that is a failure to form new laws.

You are of course aware that neither Babur nor Humayun made 'new' laws when you wrote those throw-away lines. The major administrative transformation came under Akbar's reign, and there was incremental increase during the reigns of Jahangir and Shah Jahan.

But I forgot: the exam in 60 minutes.

4. In contrast absolutely nothing. He did all he could to retain what he had. ( I havent studied him that much, so my knowledge is limited.

I agree that doing absolutely nothing, in contrast, is a good reason for giving him a good press.

Perhaps we could call this the Zen approach to history? Leaning history without learning history? Perhaps also we are looking at the first instances of a brilliant new historiography.

"....bliss it was in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young were very heaven."

By the time this new historiography comes to the fullness of its growth, I will be dead and gone for many years. WHAT a pity! But then, says the sardonic side of me,

"Quod cito acquiritur cito perit."

 

[Braith.]

Heck No. Babur was opium addict not Humayun. Research him, read up on him and you will understand what i mean.

I dont think thats true. I for one am not biggest fan of Akbar, Jahangir and Shah Jehan. But Many here love these 3. There is no disputing the fact that Akbar was gifted administrator and there is nothing wrong in giving non Mulims powers they deserve but i still dont like these Lover Boys, and their extravagant life style. These 3 couldve done so much more for India than they did and i loathe them for it. By the time of Aurangzeb it was already too late.

I dont think you know much about Mughal history. Humayun was a heavy consumer of both wine and opium like his father......and he was a mild person by Mughal standards but he was a pure Timurid and had Timurid streak in him and he was capable of committing Mongolic cruelty...this is snippet from contemporary source (Lataid-i-Qadusi), he is taking a vow before battle of Qanauj, in a general gathering, that he will slaughter every Pashtun including children if he achieves victory this time

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Akbar appear very extraordinary and great compared to his father Humayun because he was successor of an extraordinary ruler Islam Shah Sur.....most of the reforms and policies of Akbar were legacy of Sher Shah's or Islam Shah's governments . The Mansabdari system and end of jagirs for nobles, for which Akbar is much credited, was actually introduction of Islam Shah Sur. The administration through provincial system of Akbar was also continuation of Islam Shah Sur........

A distinguished nobleman and foster brother of Akbar, Mirza Aziz Koka in 1611 praise Sher Shah Sur in the following words, in a letter written to Emperor Jahangir ;

"Sher Shah Afghan, who was not a 'malak' (angel) but a 'malik' (king), established such a stable government that his memory is still alive. He turned Hindustan into a garden and the kings of Iran and Turan developed a desire to see it. Hazrat Arsh Asyani (Akbar Badshah) continued his regulations for fifty years without changing them"

(Source: Maktubat-i-Khan-i-Khanan wa Gwaliornama)


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I wont debate who was greatest but in my opinion history of Aurangzeb is most interesting among all, followed by ShahJahan's

 

[Signalian]

I never found any Mughal emperor who didnt kill or enslave his father, brother, uncle or other family member to get into power.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I never found any Mughal emperor who didnt kill or enslave his father, brother, uncle or other family member to get into power.

Unfortunately the Sultans - the Khilji and Tughlaq dynasties stand out - set the bar pretty high.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Dada,

Saiyan makes an interesting point that A-zeb inherited an empire that was basically bankrupt. I suspect that this is true and was one of the major causes of the decline of the Mughal Empire. What do you think, sir? And do you think that was inevitable. Cud A-zeb or more importantly his predecessors have done something that cud have put the empire on a sounder footing. Assuming that the economic theory is correct.

Regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dada,

Saiyan makes an interesting point that A-zeb inherited an empire that was basically bankrupt. I suspect that this is true and was one of the major causes of the decline of the Mughal Empire. What do you think, sir? And do you think that was inevitable. Cud A-zeb or more importantly his predecessors have done something that cud have put the empire on a sounder footing. Assuming that the economic theory is correct.

Regards

That is largely true. The irony is of an impoverished Empire ruling a very prosperous land. The focus of the regime, or the imperium, was on land and land revenue. Within that, the effort was to maximise extraction without destroying those who generated the'extractable', in other words, the peasantry. Much of Mughal tax administration consisted of classifying the land to judge its yield, then of building exceptions to accommodate the vicissitudes of India's notoriously fragile agricultural cycle.

One reason for the obsessive focus on expanding the empire was to increase imperial earnings. These earnings were shallow and sparse; only increasing the acreage gave any room for increased wealth.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dada,

Saiyan makes an interesting point that A-zeb inherited an empire that was basically bankrupt. I suspect that this is true and was one of the major causes of the decline of the Mughal Empire. What do you think, sir? And do you think that was inevitable. Cud A-zeb or more importantly his predecessors have done something that cud have put the empire on a sounder footing. Assuming that the economic theory is correct.

Regards

Staying with this a little longer, the vast extent of the imperial domain and the sudden growth of the empire, and the absence of an administrative framework, meant that tax collection had to be 'out-sourced'. These were the zamindars, not land-owners, but contract tax collectors who bid for the contract. It was a fatal mistake by Cornwallis generations later that positioned them as owners, and castrated the vigorous mercantile class represented by Prince Dwarkanath and made them the effete parasites battening off an abused peasantry within two generations.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dada,

Saiyan makes an interesting point that A-zeb inherited an empire that was basically bankrupt. I suspect that this is true and was one of the major causes of the decline of the Mughal Empire. What do you think, sir? And do you think that was inevitable. Cud A-zeb or more importantly his predecessors have done something that cud have put the empire on a sounder footing. Assuming that the economic theory is correct.

Regards

Trade and commerce got away remarkably lightly. Mediaeval Indian approaches to the regulation of trade and commerce were, well, mediaeval. Much of the mercantile classes aversion to the taxman must lie in this milieu that prevailed. The Europeans got out of it. A gradual devolution of authority meant that cities, the centres of trade and commerce, were often very effectively governed by their representatives; when money had to be raised, those urban bodies who had the dosh, and how best it could be extracted. There was no Indian equivalent until centuries later, largely during the 19th and 20th century.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dada,

Saiyan makes an interesting point that A-zeb inherited an empire that was basically bankrupt. I suspect that this is true and was one of the major causes of the decline of the Mughal Empire. What do you think, sir? And do you think that was inevitable. Cud A-zeb or more importantly his predecessors have done something that cud have put the empire on a sounder footing. Assuming that the economic theory is correct.

Regards

There is finally the consumption end: luxury goods for the elite, expenditure on the military (if you have that strange now_where_have_I_seen_THIS_before, join the club).

That is a separate subject which deserves better treatment than I can give it.

 

[Arsalan]

@Joe Shearer sir, great to have you back. I hope we will be seeing more of you in coming days.

How is life treating you these days?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer sir, great to have you back. I hope we will be seeing more of you in coming days.

How is life treating you these days?

I live......

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer sir, great to have you back. I hope we will be seeing more of you in coming days.

How is life treating you these days?

Have been reading your posts with great relish.