MRCA conteders narrowed to Eurofighter and Rafael: IAF

[saurabh]

Please the point is very simple India does not trust the US just like the rest of the world does not when it comes to the EUMA - why should we let you have a say on what we have purchased and why should we oblige you given we know we can get similar if not better tech from the Europeans - Ha!

I doubt that statement. They are the biggest arms exporter, EULA or not. Even Europeans use their weapons, without a problem.

 

[Ras]

So then you contradicted your own statement of "INDIANS lacking confidence in their abilities"

I believe you are a member of the armed services?

Ha and such lack of basic logic?

Please the point is very simple India does not trust the US just like the rest of the world does not when it comes to the EUMA - why should we let you have a say on what we have purchased and why should we oblige you given we know we can get similar if not better tech from the Europeans - Ha!

Please I hate to say this but members please at least think logically before posting propaganda posts!

No you can't. European tech is inferior and will remain inferior.

 

[gowthamraj]

Yes you did, IMO India has an influential lobby in Washington.

Was you wrote that correct

 

[VAJRA]

No you can't. European tech is inferior and will remain inferior.

Well so y dont you enlighten me as to how is the equipment inferior?

So you are saying that F-18s are better than EF or Rafale? and I mean the upgraded ones - barring the AESA advantage - Lets compare apples to apples? shall we?

 

[VAJRA]

I doubt that statement. They are the biggest arms exporter, EULA or not. Even Europeans use their weapons, without a problem.

Saurabh sir!

The Europeans use it cos they are close allies and hence are not worried about the EUMA as they are all mostly developed states without whose support the US cannot command the influence it does around the world!

As for big arms exporters - the point remains is that also one of the reasons how they exert influence using the EUMA?

 

[dbc]

So then you contradicted your own statement of "INDIANS lacking confidence in their abilities"

No contradictions, I was referring to Indians like you; I believe the Government of India is confident in its ability to influence Washington.

 

[VAJRA]

No contradictions, I was referring to Indians like you; I believe the Government of India is confident in its ability to influence Washington.

Well I can give you a very good answer to prove the level of confidence Indians like me have! But I shall pass as that is another good quality that we Indians have!

Anyhow please remember basic logic and weave it into your arguments before you have to write face savers like the one you wrote above?

 

[saurabh]

Well so y dont you enlighten me as to how is the equipment inferior?

So you are saying that F-18s are better than EF or Rafale? and I mean the upgraded ones - barring the AESA advantage - Lets compare apples to apples? shall we?

If you want to know how advanced US made stuff is, their decades old system are competing with recently developed/under development European stuff and are still competing neck to neck. Apples to apples comparison, lets leave it on IAF, all we can do is to speculate.

Saurabh sir!

The Europeans use it cos they are close allies and hence are not worried about the EUMA as they are all mostly developed states without whose support the US cannot command the influence it does around the world!

As for big arms exporters - the point remains is that also one of the reasons how they exert influence using the EUMA?

Why do you think we are not close to US? They made us an exception in NSG. Lot of Indians, Indian lobbies are there. At present, we are not only close, but also influencing. We are a big market, not only for arm industry, but a civilian market too. Even politically, there is no USSR now that US would think us to be friends with. The only hostilities we face are from Pakistan and China. Are you afraid they will impose sanctions on us in case of war with any of this two? Last time sanctions were imposed when we tested nukes. Do you think we will do any such thing again? Why such paranoia?

 

[VAJRA]

If you want to know how advanced US made stuff is, their decades old system are competing with recently developed/under development European stuff and are still competing neck to neck. Apples to apples comparison, lets leave it on IAF, all we can do is to speculate.



Why do you think we are not close to US? They made us an exception in NSG. Lot of Indians, Indian lobbies are there. At present, we are not only close, but also influencing. We are a big market, not only for arm industry, but a civilian market too. Even politically, there is no USSR now that US would think us to be friends with. The only hostilities we face are from Pakistan and China. Are you afraid they will impose sanctions on us in case of war with any of this two? Last time sanctions were imposed when we tested nukes. Do you think we will do any such thing again? Why such paranoia?

Well they are able to compete for the reason that they keep investing in the technology as for the Europeans I mean are you saying that a Mirage -5/9 are not as good as the Blk 52/60. yes probably the F-16-60 is a better plane cos more upgrades have gone into those systems. The french get a better airframe onto the table - is that hard to see?

As for the Paranoia - I mean if that is the case then why have the EUMA? Well that is the point if the states needs to win this one then they will have to make exceptions once again cos the MARKET IS TOO BIG AND WE DEFINITELY HAVE THE EDGE HERE!

Also if we are so close ALLIES then y does the US not back us on UNSC - I mean even China has backed us openly (though only recently) - SO by that logic why should we be paranoid about China's growing influence?

 

[Ras]

Well so y dont you enlighten me as to how is the equipment inferior?

So you are saying that F-18s are better than EF or Rafale? and I mean the upgraded ones - barring the AESA advantage - Lets compare apples to apples? shall we?

This is not in reference to the MRCA..the SH is hardly the most advanced American plane. The EF and Rafale are the most advanced European ones.

 

[saurabh]

Well they are able to compete for the reason that they keep investing in the technology as for the Europeans I mean are you saying that a Mirage -5/9 are not as good as the Blk 52/60. yes probably the F-16-60 is a better plane cos more upgrades have gone into those systems. The french get a better airframe onto the table - is that hard to see?

As I said, we can only speculate. Lets not compare.

As for the Paranoia - I mean if that is the case then why have the EUMA? Well that is the point if the states needs to win this one then they will have to make exceptions once again cos the MARKET IS TOO BIG AND WE DEFINITELY HAVE THE EDGE HERE!

Also if we are so close ALLIES then y does the US not back us on UNSC - I mean even China has backed us openly (though only recently) - SO by that logic why should we be paranoid about China's growing influence?

Even softwares have a license agreement, why not military goods. If we find anything in the contract not suitable for us, we wont purchase. Simple.

 

[black flame]

Pakistani Nationalists

Some facts friend.

Pakistan is a very poor country.

India outspends Pakistan by $5 to $1 and stil spends only 2% of its massive GDP. ON MILITARY BUDGET

2015 India,s GDP WILL TOUCH $2 TRILLON that my friend is absolutely massive by even world standards.

The Indians will be outspending PAF by 10-1 by 2020.

its no joke The india versis Pakistan equation is a TOTAL MISMATCH NOW

my friend the indian economy will touch 2 trillion in 2013-2014 a year ahead by 2012-2013 its going to be 1.72 trillion

Indian economy moving fast towards $2 trillion mark-Indicators-Economy-News-The Economic Times


Indian economy moving fast towards USD 2 trillion mark | VoteUpIndia

 

[VAJRA]

This is not in reference to the MRCA..the SH is hardly the most advanced American plane. The EF and Rafale are the most advanced European ones.

Exactly my point - that is what I meant when I said apples to apples and lets talk in reference to this deal not overall tech levels!

my question remains why do we go in with the US when we have as good if not better planes to go with without the EUMA?

Also, no hard feelings I am just trying to think rationally! thats it!

 

[airuah]

The F-18 has the best in production AESA. Proved in the field.

Indians can control their own fighters..the main things in the EUMA are that they do not give or share the fighters or technology with others. India does not sell or share her fighters so what is the big deal?

EUMA does not say anything about how the fighters should be used.

we still wont get TOT....so we will not be able to produce all the parts in india itself.....which means we will still depend on the US FOR ALL CRITICAL stuff -which is not acceptable to us especially during war time...

then comes the issue of sanctions .....we never want any country telling us when we can/cannot use the planes. ( like US telling pakistan that they cannot use their new F16's against india-then why would pak buy the planes in the first place).

we are not gonna sign the communication and interoperatablity agreement that would eventually mean that we are one of the allied nations(India is a part of non-alligned movement) and we we are more at ease with time tested Russian friendship that with that of the US. we would not put that friendship at stake besides the russians offer us full TOT for their aircrafts-including the engines-for eg. the Su30mki....fully indian made planes have started rolling out....

besides since we are not going to sign that agreements the american orders that have already been placed like the P8i and the C130 aircraft are not having a proper GPS system(we will probable use our own GAGAN/RUSSIAN-GLONASS for that purpose).....we dont want our fighter aircrafts to be in that state.

then comes the missiles......i dont believe that the US will allow us to integrate our own missiles with their aircraft.(imagine having an aaaaaair launched brahmos on one of them....would'nt it be funny?

 

[VAJRA]

As I said, we can only speculate. Lets not compare.



Even softwares have a license agreement, why not military goods. If we find anything in the contract not suitable for us, we wont purchase. Simple.

quickly that is exactly what I meant!

EUMA is a big problem here - its like giving the americans another bargaining chip in the region apart from their role in AF/PAK! No matter how much we talk about decoupling the two issues but the point remains they do trigger fallout someway or the other!