Mourn idea of India, but don’t forget that the idea of people is changing too

[letsrock]

Did the people of that time agreed that they need to share their country with Muslims even though Muslims got their own country? Was there a poll on this? If given an option between a Hindu nation, ( or may be a Hindu-Sikh nation ) and a secular nation, which option would majority of India had agreed to? Was their opinion sought by the elites of that time?

what do you mean "share" the country? do you think that is an option to ask people leave enmasse where they lived for centuries because some guy somewhere got a country based on religion. what is a "hindu" btw? as if they are one - vast majority wont even intermarry.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

what do you mean "share" the country? do you think that is an option to ask people leave enmasse where they lived for centuries because some guy somewhere got a country based on religion. what is a "hindu" btw? as if they are one - vast majority wont even intermarry.

Didn't that happen in Pakistan, erstwhile East Pakistan and Bangladesh?

Hinduism in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

West Pakistan had 14% Hindu population and East Pakistan had 25% Hindu population in 1941.
It fell to what? <5%.

Shouldn't same have happened in India too? Muslim population < 1-2%?

Hindu is anyone who self identifies with Hinduism.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Did the people of that time agreed that they need to share their country with Muslims even though Muslims got their own country? Was there a poll on this? If given an option between a Hindu nation, ( or may be a Hindu-Sikh nation ) and a secular nation, which option would majority of India had agreed to? Was their opinion sought by the elites of that time?

Yes. People voted for Nehru. He won elections fair and square. Or else Jana Sangh would have won.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Didn't that happen in Pakistan, erstwhile East Pakistan and Bangladesh?

Hinduism in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

West Pakistan had 14% Hindu population and East Pakistan had 25% Hindu population in 1941.
It fell to what? <5%.

Shouldn't same have happened in India too? Muslim population < 1-2%?

Hindu is anyone who self identifies with Hinduism.

If you want to have serious discussion don't quote him. He is a troll and a false flag.

 

[letsrock]

Didn't that happen in Pakistan, erstwhile East Pakistan and Bangladesh?

Hinduism in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

West Pakistan had 14% Hindu population and East Pakistan had 25% Hindu population in 1941.
It fell to what? <5%.

Shouldn't same have happened in India too? Muslim population < 1-2%?

Hindu is anyone who self identifies with Hinduism.

What happened in pakistan happened in india too. India simply had a much larger country - you cant count killings and uprooting in percentages. Almost equal people crossed border both ways.

Leave apart the historical tragedy - think of the cruelty that is implicit in your thinking. You want entire population transfers of mostly illiterate people completely dependent on land they live in for their livelihood just because some brit somewhere and some jinnah somewhere got pakistan. And pakistan too was not formed as homeland for anyone - the muslim majority provinces went to pakistan and non-muslim majority went to india.

 

[letsrock]

If you want to have serious discussion don't quote him. He is a troll and a false flag.

False flag? what next false caste? i never trolled anyone. You just think i shouldnt have a voice because they make your false opinions and bigotry and lack of dignity as tamil very uncomfortable . Luckily this aint bharat rakshak - people have a principle and dignity here.

 

[H. Dawary]

It all depends on how Modi plays it out. Thus far, from my point of view, he’s been rash. He can’t undo the history of India to the India he wants it to be during his lifetime. It took Muslims centuries and centuries of cultural influence to have made this much of an impact we see today in the subcontinent, and Modi thinks this can be undone with a couple of terms in office???Something of what he envisions will have to take 200 to 300 years.

His better approach would much rather be if he were to focus more on economy, modernization, cultural appropriation (like western nations); That way people would focus less on heritage and religion and more on what’s in front of them, such as careers, cars, women, and class.

Well let’s see what will happen, India is a colossus, it will more than likely survive Modi, I am curious as to what will happen to it down the road.

 

[letsrock]

It all depends on how Modi plays it out. Thus far, from my point of view, he’s been rash. He can’t undo the history of India to the India he wants it to be during his lifetime. It took Muslims centuries and centuries of cultural influence to have made this much of an impact we see today in the subcontinent, and Modi thinks this can be undone with a couple of terms in office???Something of what he envisions will have to take 200 to 300 years.

His better approach would much rather be if he were to focus more on economy, modernization, cultural appropriation (like western nations); That way people would focus less on heritage and religion and more on what’s in front of them, such as careers, cars, women, and class.

Well let’s see what will happen, India is a colossus, it will more than likely survive Modi, I am curious as to what will happen to it down the road.

They dont care about economy - infact many of them with their primitive mindset dont even understand it. They are after hierarchy in which muslims need to be shows their place even if it means taking an economic hit. Lets see.

 

[H. Dawary]

They dont care about economy - infact many of them with their primitive mindset dont even understand it. They are after hierarchy in which muslims need to be shows their place even if it means taking an economic hit. Lets see.

Perhaps true for the extremists, but it’s far too soon to tell, we can’t pit 1.3+ billion people in the same category, each has their own sentiments.

At any rate if Modi does take India down the road he envisions, then it will probably be good for Pakistan.

 

[xeuss]

This was the thread because of which I joined this forum.

I think these intellectual types are basically silly. Why? Its' very easy to see why. They expect people of India to accept willingly the idea of a secular pluralistic society and be tolerant to minorities. Lets step back just to beginning. In 1950, when Republic of India was formed, it was not formed according to the wish of majority of Indians. It was one that was imposed on them.

The entire constitution was based on this weird idea that "We the people of India" are sovereign yet "we" were forced to be secular and tolerant WITHOUT taking permission from "we". Don't you see the absolute contradiction here? Actually, Pakistan was closer to the wishes of its people. It was what it said on the lid. A Islamic Republic. Simple. It was much easier to get behind this idea because it was simpler and because it was more truthful. It was the real will of Pakistanis. They were Muslims and wanted a country for their own.

Now in India, when independence was given, the domanion of Hindustan was not what it said on the tin. It was an amalgamation of a number of religions, Islam included. How will you explain this contradiction to people? Muslim get their nation but Hindus (you can include Sikhs as well) were supposed to STILL share their domanion with Muslim YET again. And to top it all, they have to accept it as their sovereign will.

That is the definition of bullshit. The only reason this bullshit persisted for so long was the divided opinion of Hindus in multiple castes and languages and creeds. It was only a matter of time before this solidified into one very basic and common desire : To seek a nation of their own. A Hindu nation. May be non-Muslim nation be more fitting and apt. As soon as the dividing regional forces became somewhat weeker, this will and the past bullshit of plural secular setup served to them, protected by the federal structure of the nation, fed to them by liberal controlled media and government education, all came undone! It had to. It was bullshit to begin with.

If I ever to meet this professor, I will tell him this : "You moron! its not the idea of people is changing. You and Nehru and Ambedkar and Gandhi got it all wrong in the first place! Perhaps because all three of them were too enamoured by the western enlightenment that they forgot that nations belong to people. People were not with them."

Quite amusing to see that the need for a Hindu Rashtra is dictated by the fact that Muslims have an Islamic State.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Quite amusing to see that the need for a Hindu Rashtra is dictated by the fact that Muslims have an Islamic State.

Indeed! Muslims have Pakistan and Bangladesh in subcontinent. Hindus are practically homeless! They don't have a single country they can call their home land which can accepts them. India forces them to quit their religion and accept secularism. There is NO country for 1 billion Hindus, they have to take control of the only country in which they have majority and fashion it to be their home land.

What Hindus needed is a Hindu equivalent of Jinnah who consolidates their political power. Modi comes close but even he is not what it will take.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

What happened in pakistan happened in india too. India simply had a much larger country - you cant count killings and uprooting in percentages. Almost equal people crossed border both ways.

Leave apart the historical tragedy - think of the cruelty that is implicit in your thinking. You want entire population transfers of mostly illiterate people completely dependent on land they live in for their livelihood just because some brit somewhere and some jinnah somewhere got pakistan. And pakistan too was not formed as homeland for anyone - the muslim majority provinces went to pakistan and non-muslim majority went to india.

No not exactly true. What happened in Pakistan and later in East Pakistan NEVER happened in India.

West Pakistan became practically FREE of any Hindu and Sikh presence after 1947. East Pakistan also saw a decimation of non-Muslim after 1970.

What happened in India? Hindus are declining. From 86% to less than 75% presently.

If Hindu need to survive, they need to reclaim their land. Their country. Its that simple. Because after all, if Hindus don't have any political power in India, they will be crushed. And Hindus political power has constantly declined in India. Only in 2014, for the first time, true consolidation of Hindu's political power happened. They need to take this opportunity to grab political power and fashion a Hindu nation for themselves. A homeland.

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

Yes. People voted for Nehru. He won elections fair and square. Or else Jana Sangh would have won.

Did you mean 1945/46 General and Provincial election?

 

[Ajay Ghatak]

What happened in pakistan happened in india too. India simply had a much larger country - you cant count killings and uprooting in percentages. Almost equal people crossed border both ways.

You are getting me wrong. Its not the uprooting and killings that is what is the end goal. The end goal is a Hindu nation. A homeland for Hindus because there is none. A nation which does not forces Hindus to give up their religion to align with secular agenda of elites, like it happens in India. Such a nation is not possible unless Hindus are sole holder of political power. Like it is in Pakistan. Like it is in B'desh.

Pakistan is the true example of this : You need to be Muslim to hold any meaningful political power in the nation. You cann't go against Islam and expect yourself to hold any political or administrative post. Heck, god have mercy on you if you do so. It is such kind of nation Hindus also need for themselves.

Hindu's folly has been to remain detached from reality. Reality is this : unless you consolidate your political power, you will remain powerless. In India, "Hindu - Pakistan" is a term which was derided while thats exactly what Hindus needed. Most likely Hindus and Sikhs can co-exist in such a political entity but surely a nation where 20-25% of political power is in hands of Muslims is not going to be good of Hindus. Time of reckoning is near and unless Hindus fashion a Hindu homeland out of current secular mess of India, they will cease to exist.

Jinnah was absolutely right on this. Muslim needed their homeland in 1947... and so did and still do Hindus and Sikhs, likely together.

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

False flag? what next false caste? i never trolled anyone. You just think i shouldnt have a voice because they make your false opinions and bigotry and lack of dignity as tamil very uncomfortable . Luckily this aint bharat rakshak - people have a principle and dignity here.

Nope cos you couldn't talk Tamil when you so called tagging me on Tamil related threads. Bug off.