Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia and Eastern Iran

[Nowruz]

Why shouldn't I seperate them? Afghans and Turks aren't the same. The only thing that connects Afghans with other Turkics is Islam and even with that many Turks take it mainly casual and not radical unlike Afghans

True most Turks are secular, and Im not only talking about the Turks in Turkey, in other countries as well such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, however there are more Radical Islamic Turks as well, these Islamist Turks are usually situated in the Caucasus, Uzbekistan, and East Turkestan.

 

[ghilzai]

@Charon Do you think Turks in turkey are pure?, did they not mix with armenians, Greeks, cypriots, Arabs and so on?.

Turk Is anyone who relates himself to the land of turan.

 

[Nowruz]

I know that the Mughals were Chagatai Turko-Mongols from Uzbekistan. I use the name "Afghan" only for Pashtuns. I don't believe in something like an "Afghan" nationality and I don't consider Uzbeks, Hazaras, Turkmens or Tajiks who live in Afghanistan as "Afghans".

Well since the Pashtuns are the dominant ethnic group in Afghanistan I can understand what you are trying to say, However if you said this to any of the ethnic groups in Afghanistan they would harshly criticize you. All the ethnic groups in Afghanistan like to refer themselves as "Afghans" as it promotes national unity amongst themselves - the same goes for the people in Pakistan how they all refer themselves as "Pakistanis" although Pakistan is ethnically very diverse.

Think about this in Turkey, Turkey as you know is also diverse their aren't only Turks living in Turkey but many other ethnicities as well such as Kurds, Armenians, Greeks (Rum), Laz. Assyrians, Circassians, Georgians, and Arabs. In Turkey people say they are "Turkiye Jumhuriyet-i Vatandashiyim" so this won't promote seperatism among ethnic groups which would lead to Turkey being divided.

Nationalism is very strong among the "Afghan" people. Tajiks are very proud of their high culture and Persian heritage. Many Pashtuns call Afghanistan "Pashtunistan" and they are very proud of their Pahtunwali culture and Afghan heroes like Ahmad Shah Durrani. Uzbeks alone a very proud of the country Uzbekistan and their Turkic culture. They consider also Timur and Babur as their national heroes. Hazaras see themselves as Mongols and as descendants of Ghengis Khan. They are also very proud about that of course. I dont believe that many Hazaras, Uzbeks, Tajiks or Hazaras see themselves as "Afghan".

These groups you listed such as Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazars, Pashtuns, etc. Yes they are proud of their roots and nationalistic, HOWEVER at the same time they are also loyal to their country Afghanistan and still consider themselves Afghans at the same time.

 

[Nowruz]

I often read in Tajik or Pashtun forums and it seems to me that they don't like each other. Many Tajiks hate it when you name them "Afghan" because this ethnonym is actually used only for Pashtuns as Afghan=Pashtun. Many Tajiks also consider Pashtuns as barbarian Taliban savages. Many Pashtuns see Afghanistan as "Pashtunistan" and they also want to pashtunize Hazaras, Uzbeks and Tajiks. Tajiks and Uzbeks have both their own country to be proud of. I have noticed that "Pakistanis" have a common identity but I can't see this on "Afghans" sorry

Alot of ethnic groups such as the Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazars have a strong mistrust of the Pashtuns, they do not trust the Pashtuns, especially during the Taliban era...

 

[Nowruz]

@Charon Do you think Turks in turkey are pure?, did they not mix with armenians, Greeks, cypriots, Arabs and so on?.

Turk Is anyone who relates himself to the land of turan.

Ofcourse the Turks living in Anatolia (Present day Turkey) are all completely mixed. It is proven by just going to Turkey and looking at them. 98% of Turks do not have any Turkic-Mongol physical characteristic because they have all heavily mixed with other populations for years since the Turks arrived in the area from Asia.

The same goes for Turks living in the Balkans like in Greece, Macedonia, or Bulgaria. These Turks have mixed with Slavs Albanians and Greeks, or these "Turks" they label themselves as, are just Muslim Greek or Bulgarians converts.

The Turks living in Western Turkey have more Slavic Greek mixtures, Turks in Northen Turkey Black Sea region have Laz, Georgian or Hemshinli (Armenian) admixture. Turks in Eastern Turkey are mixed with Arabs, Assyrians, Kurds and Armenians. Turks in Central Turkey are more "pure" though they are either Turkmens or mixed with several Armenian groups. There are still several pure Turkic Turks in Turkey that have Turkmen roots - these Turks are the "Alevis" they are mostly in Central Turkey and there are Yoruk Turkmens situated in Southen Turkey..

 

[Charon]

@Charon Do you think Turks in turkey are pure?, did they not mix with armenians, Greeks, cypriots, Arabs and so on?.

Turk Is anyone who relates himself to the land of turan.

I've never said that Turks in Turkey are pure. We could say that Turks are mainly a mix between Oghuz Turkic newcomers and Native Anatolians. The main difference between Ghilzais and Turks is that the Ghilzai speak an Eastern Iranian language and the Turks a Turkic language. Ghilzais are also culturally Pashtuns and don't have anything in common with Turkic peoples neither culturally, genetically nor linguistically. Furthermore it is not proven that Ghilzais are the descendants of Turkic Khiljis as we have several theories about the origins of Ghilzais but we can say that they're mainly a mix between Eastern Iranians and Turkics. It's of course your decision if you want to feel yourself as Turkic, though you're culturally a Pashtun and your native language is an Eastern Iranian

 

[Charon]

True most Turks are secular, and Im not only talking about the Turks in Turkey, in other countries as well such as Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, however there are more Radical Islamic Turks as well, these Islamist Turks are usually situated in the Caucasus, Uzbekistan, and East Turkestan.

I wouldn't say that most Uzbeks are that radical Islamic. It's true that Uzbeks feel themselves closer to Islam than other Turkics but they were still under Soviet rule and I also heard that Uzbeks from Tashkent are mainly secular Muslims while the Uzbeks from Samarkand and Bukkara are more religious conservative. Which Turkic people do you mean from the Caucasus? The conservative radical Muslims from the Caucasus are Chechens and they're not Turkic. I've never heard about radical Turkic groups from the Caucasus BTW.

Turks are genetically 7-10 % Mongoloid on average. There must be existed a high number of Turkmens who migrated to Anatolia if we consider the fact that Turkmens from Turkmenistan have also only 16-20 % Mongoloid admixture on average. In Anatolia the Turkmens mixed with the Native populations and the result today are modern Turks. Many people believe that Turks from Western Turkey are only Turkiczied Greeks but genetics have already disproved this as Turks from Western Turkish provinces like Aydin have even the highest Mongloid admxiture than all other Turks. Turks from Aydin have 11 % Mongoloid admixture on average while Turks from Kayseri and Istanbul are only 6 % Mongoloid admixed

Here you can see the genetical admixture of Turks from different provinces:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j0NtK9KR6...Fhs/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Istanbul_Ho_3.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QmgogpYSd...jIAw/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Kayseri_Ho_3.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFI...fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png

Western Eurasian means Caucasoid admixture while Eastrn Eurasian means Mongoloid admxiture


You can also see here a genetical cluster plot from different populations. Turks from Aydin cluster here the closest with Turkmens:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3EPNodkspCw/Tz1c0Rnh1dI/AAAAAAAAEgc/vbK2_7THyVs/s1600/blowup.jpg

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Well most "Afghans" would disagree with this. All these ethnicities - Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc. who live in Afghanistan are called Afghans. They call themselves Afghans as well.

Before Afghan meant pashtun, "Pakistan" A stand for Afghania province. Now its better to use as nationality since pashtun make 40% of Afghanistan population now.

 

[ghilzai]

I've never said that Turks in Turkey are pure. We could say that Turks are mainly a mix between Oghuz Turkic newcomers and Native Anatolians. The main difference between Ghilzais and Turks is that the Ghilzai speak an Eastern Iranian language and the Turks a Turkic language. Ghilzais are also culturally Pashtuns and don't have anything in common with Turkic peoples neither culturally, genetically nor linguistically. Furthermore it is not proven that Ghilzais are the descendants of Turkic Khiljis as we have several theories about the origins of Ghilzais but we can say that they're mainly a mix between Eastern Iranians and Turkics. It's of course your decision if you want to feel yourself as Turkic, though you're culturally a Pashtun and your native language is an Eastern Iranian

Genetically Turks from turkey are very different from Turks, they have high mixture in their genes, Turkism was started after the collapse of the ottoman empire.

Names language and names of places was changed to sound turkic, now that clearly Indicates that Turkic language was introduced to achieve Turkism and to distance itself from ottoman culture and language, an identity fabricated to create nationalism.

By just speaking a turkic language hardly makes one a turk, or adopting part culture also doesn't make you a turk.

Turks of central Asia are hardly Turks as they too have mixed with Iranic people, during the Turkic invasion of central Asia the land was inhabited by iranic people and they just didnt disappear.

 

[ghilzai]

Ofcourse the Turks living in Anatolia (Present day Turkey) are all completely mixed. It is proven by just going to Turkey and looking at them. 98% of Turks do not have any Turkic-Mongol physical characteristic because they have all heavily mixed with other populations for years since the Turks arrived in the area from Asia.

The same goes for Turks living in the Balkans like in Greece, Macedonia, or Bulgaria. These Turks have mixed with Slavs Albanians and Greeks, or these "Turks" they label themselves as, are just Muslim Greek or Bulgarians converts.

The Turks living in Western Turkey have more Slavic Greek mixtures, Turks in Northen Turkey Black Sea region have Laz, Georgian or Hemshinli (Armenian) admixture. Turks in Eastern Turkey are mixed with Arabs, Assyrians, Kurds and Armenians. Turks in Central Turkey are more "pure" though they are either Turkmens or mixed with several Armenian groups. There are still several pure Turkic Turks in Turkey that have Turkmen roots - these Turks are the "Alevis" they are mostly in Central Turkey and there are Yoruk Turkmens situated in Southen Turkey..

In simple English they are mixed as mud.

 

[Charon]

Genetically Turks from turkey are very different from Turks, they have high mixture in their genes, Turkism was started after the collapse of the ottoman empire.

Names language and names of places was changed to sound turkic, now that clearly Indicates that Turkic language was introduced to achieve Turkism and to distance itself from ottoman culture and language, an identity fabricated to create nationalism.

By just speaking a turkic language hardly makes one a turk, or adopting part culture also doesn't make you a turk.

Turks of central Asia are hardly Turks as they too have mixed with Iranic people, during the Turkic invasion of central Asia the land was inhabited by iranic people and they just didnt disappear.

Speaking an Eastern Iranian language and having a Pashtun culture makes someone in no sense Turkic. The language is the most important cultural feature of a nation, not the genetic heritage. Turks are mixed just as Iranians, Pashtuns, Arabs, Germans and EVERY ethnicity in this world. It's the language which makes the Turks and Azeris Turkic and the Persians and Pashtuns Iranic. There is no dogma in this world that you must be Mongoloid for being Turkic. Many Turkic peoples like Khazars or Kipchaks were described with Caucasoid features and this was before the Mongol invasions. Turkic peoples haven't only mixed with Iranic peoples, they also heavily mixed with Mongols. Proto-Turks probably arose during a clash between Caucasoids and Mongoloids in the Altay region.

 

[Nowruz]

I wouldn't say that most Uzbeks are that radical Islamic. It's true that Uzbeks feel themselves closer to Islam than other Turkics but they were still under Soviet rule and I also heard that Uzbeks from Tashkent are mainly secular Muslims while the Uzbeks from Samarkand and Bukkara are more religious conservative. Which Turkic people do you mean from the Caucasus? The conservative radical Muslims from the Caucasus are Chechens and they're not Turkic. I've never heard about radical Turkic groups from the Caucasus BTW.

Turks are genetically 7-10 % Mongoloid on average. There must be existed a high number of Turkmens who migrated to Anatolia if we consider the fact that Turkmens from Turkmenistan have also only 16-20 % Mongoloid admixture on average. In Anatolia the Turkmens mixed with the Native populations and the result today are modern Turks. Many people believe that Turks from Western Turkey are only Turkiczied Greeks but genetics have already disproved this as Turks from Western Turkish provinces like Aydin have even the highest Mongloid admxiture than all other Turks. Turks from Aydin have 11 % Mongoloid admixture on average while Turks from Kayseri and Istanbul are only 6 % Mongoloid admixed

Here you can see the genetical admixture of Turks from different provinces:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j0NtK9KR6...Fhs/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Istanbul_Ho_3.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QmgogpYSd...jIAw/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Kayseri_Ho_3.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFI...fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png

Western Eurasian means Caucasoid admixture while Eastrn Eurasian means Mongoloid admxiture


You can also see here a genetical cluster plot from different populations. Turks from Aydin cluster here the closest with Turkmens:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3EPNodkspCw/Tz1c0Rnh1dI/AAAAAAAAEgc/vbK2_7THyVs/s1600/blowup.jpg

Hmm interesting I thought Kayseri was known to have more people of purer Turkic genes since the Seljuks filled Kayseri with many Turks from Central Asia..

 

[Nowruz]

I wouldn't say that most Uzbeks are that radical Islamic. It's true that Uzbeks feel themselves closer to Islam than other Turkics but they were still under Soviet rule and I also heard that Uzbeks from Tashkent are mainly secular Muslims while the Uzbeks from Samarkand and Bukkara are more religious conservative. Which Turkic people do you mean from the Caucasus? The conservative radical Muslims from the Caucasus are Chechens and they're not Turkic. I've never heard about radical Turkic groups from the Caucasus BTW.

Turks are genetically 7-10 % Mongoloid on average. There must be existed a high number of Turkmens who migrated to Anatolia if we consider the fact that Turkmens from Turkmenistan have also only 16-20 % Mongoloid admixture on average. In Anatolia the Turkmens mixed with the Native populations and the result today are modern Turks. Many people believe that Turks from Western Turkey are only Turkiczied Greeks but genetics have already disproved this as Turks from Western Turkish provinces like Aydin have even the highest Mongloid admxiture than all other Turks. Turks from Aydin have 11 % Mongoloid admixture on average while Turks from Kayseri and Istanbul are only 6 % Mongoloid admixed

Here you can see the genetical admixture of Turks from different provinces:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j0NtK9KR6...Fhs/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Istanbul_Ho_3.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QmgogpYSd...jIAw/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Kayseri_Ho_3.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFI...fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png

Western Eurasian means Caucasoid admixture while Eastrn Eurasian means Mongoloid admxiture


You can also see here a genetical cluster plot from different populations. Turks from Aydin cluster here the closest with Turkmens:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3EPNodkspCw/Tz1c0Rnh1dI/AAAAAAAAEgc/vbK2_7THyVs/s1600/blowup.jpg

Chechens and Ingush are both Nakh peoples however there has been a large percentage of Mongoloid admixture found within Chechens which suggest inter-mixing between Chechens and Turkic groups (Karachay, Karakalpak, Kumuks etc.) of the Caucasus.

 

[Charon]

Chechens and Ingush are both Nakh peoples however there has been a large percentage of Mongoloid admixture found within Chechens which suggest inter-mixing between Chechens and Turkic groups (Karachay, Karakalpak, Kumuks etc.) of the Caucasus.

I was also surprised but I'm also happy about that because the stereotype that Turks from Western Turkey are all Turkiczied Greeks annoyed me very much. You mean that Konya was mostly populated by Turks don't you? Konya was the capital of the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum, not Kayseri.

Chechens have only 1-2 % Mongoloid amixture which isn't really worth mentioning. Karakalpaks have nothing to do with the Caucasus, as they mainly live in the autonomous republic Karakalpakstan in Uzbekistan

 

[A1Kaid]

The Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian dynasty was absolutely devastating and destroyed the Khwarazmian dynasty, the Mongols completely eradicated their entire land empire. The Khwarazmian empire never stood a chance. It is one of the quickest events of eradication and destruction of any Empire I can think of in history. In one large sweep Mongols wiped them off of the Earth.

Even many Empires who have suffered a brutal end, Persian, Roman, Mongols, Portuguese, British, Soviet Union, Spanish, Mughal, they all fell in stages and time periods Khwarazmian ended in a sweep and we never heard from them again.