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Moment Of Truth :---

I also hate when pakistanis here on this forum always parrot that we pakistanis are willing to "die" in case of war, that is one of the most rubbish way of thinking about a war. You don't enter in the war with the thought of "dying" but rather you enter in the war to make your enemy die and ensure your own survival.

Hi,

When you plan to die for your cause---that means---you are not going to prepare hard enough for success.

To succeed---you have to plan & prepare harder to come on top of the adversary who maybe more resourceful than you---.

It is not the mountain top that kills you---. It is the ill preparation of conquering the slope that kills you even before you will get to the mountain top---.
 
Hi,

When you plan to die for your cause---that means---you are not going to prepare hard enough for success.

To succeed---you have to plan & prepare harder to come on top of the adversary who maybe more resourceful than you---.

It is not the mountain top that kills you---. It is the ill preparation of conquering the slope that kills you even before you will get to the mountain top---.

There is a difference between suicide and conviction to even die for your cause.

Why are you desecrating the concept of shadat.
 
Hi,

Concept of 'shahadat' as aspired by pakistanis is against the canons of islam---.

Many take "shahdat" in a greedy way as an "easy ticket" to jannat which is very wrong way to look at the concept of "shahdat", "shadat" should be avoided as much as possible and "being Ghazi" should be aspired and celebrated more.
 
Sure criticise...but is this man criticising or is he anti Pakistan. Have you ever seen a positive post about PAF from him.
Now people like you who want to be in his favour support him. Yet ask him what he thinks of pakistan in general. Sitting in foreign lands with a glass of beer cruising us is fine...come and do what you have to? Jinnah did after all. So either put up of shut up. Now hahahaha
Well he comes off harsh but trust me I used to get irritated by his posts but once you get past that you will realize that he is looking at it from a different perspective.
I think he loves Pakistan very much that is why gets so involved. I hope he changes his tone and then his message will be received better.
PAF has a lot of good smart brave people his anger is directed towards some policies and policy makers.
Once you look at things from outside in perspective changes.
Now wether he drinks or not I do not know but not everybody living in West drinks and for that purpose a lot of Pakistani drink in Pakistan.
Let Allah be judge of that as I do not know.
Hey!!!! Dont paint all veterans with the same brush. Iam one too having been on the forum for 13 years HaaHaa.
A


To analyze this further you need to qualify how Pakistan has been sabotaged from the top. We have a history full of gross negligence and downright treason but we have the advantage of looking at this with a retrospectoscope. For instance we were made to believe Liaquat Ali Khan scuffed USSR to go to USA, but it seems our Quaid tried to do the same. Now what happened later was perhaps incited by US but no one could have foreseen what was going to happen.
The last 10 years have almost certainly been a sabotage but can you blame PAF for it? This is the question.
A
well Liaqat Ali Khan made his choice even what Qaed E Azam was thinking or not, Ayub got aid and signed the defence equipment is against Communism, PAF developed a comfort zone and some reasons were good some not so good. Question is were these mistake lack of vision or for personal reasons? It will be hard to prove anything but if one may look back somethings are evident and all that is evident is PAF should have four more squadrons of multirole planes or two air superiority, one deep strike and one maritime strike squadron in addition to what we have. Corruption and mismanagement did not help.
There have been definitely mistakes and it can be debated how grave they were.
All said and done PAF didn’t do too bad, could it have done better yes.
Were there some bad leaders in PAF yes were there some top class people at helm? yes. I do not intend to name anyone but the idea is to improve i the future.
 
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go back in time capsule and find out your self. plenty of reading material is there.
There is no evidence to suggest that the variants of hawker hunter or folland gnat operated by India were inferior to north american f86 sabre.

You merely parroted what Indian members used to say.

Talking about Tipu sultan is accepting defeat how ? Please tell.
What happened to him and Mysore?

Most---almost all pakistanis gives Tipu Sultan example---that comes by default---.

It is just a change of mindset and direction---.

If there was a single pakistani that I had ever heard being like a Ghaznavi Ghauri or Abdali in my 60 plus years of life---I would agree to that---.
I have seen people giving examples especially of Ghaznavi and Somnath.

Operation Somnath comes to mind. Bombing of Dawarka.

Now if we were in a last ditch situation, wanting the nuclear missiles to fly and awaiting mutual destruction, then example of Tipu would be OK. But not now.
 
There is no evidence to suggest that the variants of hawker hunter or folland gnat operated by India were inferior to north american f86 sabre.

You merely parroted what Indian members used to say.


What happened to him and Mysore?


I have seen people giving examples especially of Ghaznavi and Somnath.

Operation Somnath comes to mind. Bombing of Dawarka.

Now if we were in a last ditch situation, wanting the nuclear missiles to fly and awaiting mutual destruction, then example of Tipu would be OK. But not now.
Gnat was a good plane in IAF but Sabre was a capable fighter. PAF did better because of initiative and off course F104 had high fear factor because of its speed although plane had was very poor in maneuvering.
All said and done PAF had good training relatively better planes in 65 and initiative and tactics used were better than IAF
 
Gnat was a good plane in IAF but Sabre was a capable fighter. PAF did better because of initiative and off course F104 had high fear factor because of its speed although plane had was very poor in maneuvering.
All said and done PAF had good training relatively better planes in 65 and initiative and tactics used were better than IAF
And how about in 71 sir they Mig-21, and PAF had very few F-104 in 71 because of spares, with sabers we still manage to defend west Pakistan better than in 65,, the kill and shot ratio is better in 71 then 65 @Humble Analyst
 
Now wether he drinks or not I do not know but not everybody living in West drinks and for that purpose a lot of Pakistani drink in Pakistan.
Let Allah be judge of that as I do not know.

well Liaqat Ali Khan made his choice even what Qaed E Azam was thinking or not, Ayub got aid and signed the defence equipment is against Communism, PAF developed a comfort zone and some reasons were good some not so good. Question is were these mistake lack of vision or for personal reasons? It will be hard to prove anything but if one may look back somethings are evident and all that is evident is PAF should have four more squadrons of multirole planes or two air superiority, one deep strike and one maritime strike squadron in addition to what we have. Corruption and mismanagement did not help.
There have been definitely mistakes and it can be debated how grave they were.
All said and done PAF didn’t do too bad, could it have done better yes.
Were there some bad leaders in PAF yes were there some top class people at helm? yes. I do not intend to name anyone but the idea is to improve i the future.

Hi,

I don't drink liquor or smoke---my physical fitness routine did not have time for that---.

We need to analyze what is at hand and how often the same mistake has been made in the process of procuring the primary major weapons system---.

To generalize it into everything else is to get into a sinkhole---.

It is very easy to assess---it was due to lack of vision and total incompetence---a lack of understanding the urgency and a total disregard of enemy power---.

Right type of aircraft were available throughout the last 35 years and cash was not the problem always---timing and understanding was---.

Major weapons purchase and honesty are two things that should never be mixed together---. This is a business of death and destruction where time is of extreme essence & honetsy has no or little place---.

The only thing that you need to do---if you are really honest then get the best available equipment for the money---then you have done the nation a great favor---.

You know it---I know it---guy on the street corner knows it---our enemy has great influence and it will do everything possible to sabotage our purchase---and the only person who does not know that is the Paf purchaser---.

When we were shopping for the Agosta 90B we were also looking at the british subs as well---. The deal fell thru possibly for kick backs---Benazir I believe handled the deal on the Agosta 90's---.

Guess what---those british subs are sitting at docks worthless and the agosta 90 B still putting fear of god in the enemy---. So---in the end---it was money well spent on the Agostas---.

Look at what we are doing now---buying all the Mirage 3 / 5's from all over the world and upgrading them---. My question would be then what stopped us from doing that in the 90's---or why didn't go for the mirage F1's---why did we not go for the Cheetah upgrade---.

I mean to say---with so many failures to buy---there comes a time to cut the losses and change direction and search other venues---.

That is why---military projects need to have a very capable civilian oversight as well.
 
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Hi,

Yeah----they have type written files sitting in their office---they are waiting for the power to come to make copies and send them to me---.


Hi,

Oh wow---what a 'clever' comment---" provide proof "---.

You may be surprised that the educated world works on this principle; specially the scientific community.
The sales community on the other hand works by twisting and misrepresenting facts.

11 pages of useless and baseless rants is what you gave rise to, because you "felt" things
didn't comply to your basis of reasoning.


MK isn't drunk.
@messiach has said that she feels Pak has been sabotaged from the top. Why would she say that?
Ask yourself that

We will not claim that PAF doesn't have it's share of jokers, and imbeciles.
However that can not be termed as sabotage within reason.

There is a difference between homicide, manslaughter and premeditated murder; and all of them are punished differently.
 
Hi,

The indian take over of kashmir has finally let the cat out of the bag---.

And the cat says that the Paf has been caught with its pants down and may end up letting the nation and people of kashmir down---.

The Paf is woefully short of frontline fighter aircraft by a number of 100-150 aircraft---. The reason being that the Paf did not believe that there would be a war with india---.

Paf intentionally kept the numbers down over the last 3 1/2 decades for the reason that with a full inventory---pak army would have waged a war and the Paf---self serving organization that it is---does not want to fight a war---.

Every opportunity that the Paf had of getting the aircraft was short listed and an excuse found not to get the aircraft in a timely manner---. Every opportunity was availed to stretch the purchase option till the line stretched so thin that it broke---.

Never ever was there any URGENCY shown on the behalf of the Paf to get the aircraft on urgent basis---.
When did they let it go ? -"The indian take over of kashmir has finally let the cat out of the bag---"
 
We will not claim that PAF doesn't have it's share of jokers, and imbeciles.
However that can not be termed as sabotage within reason.

There is a difference between homicide, manslaughter and premeditated murder; and all of them are punished differently.

Hi,

When it happens the first time---it is an error---when it happens a second time---it becomes an issue---when it keeps happening over and over---then there is a reason behind it---.

It is called internal / intentional sabotage---.
 
T
Hi,

Concept of 'shahadat' as aspired by pakistanis is against the canons of islam---.

That is not for us to judge.

Also what do you mean by concept a saspired by Pakistanis ?

As per you what is the difference ?
 
Hi,

When it happens the first time---it is an error---when it happens a second time---it becomes an issue---when it keeps happening over and over---then there is a reason behind it---.

It is called internal / intentional sabotage---.

NO it is not.
It is to be investigated as short comings in education, training, departmental support, geo-political calculus
before making a wild assertion like you are doing so right now.

For a force, that has always been short of cash, and inducts officers from the worst education system possible, and a society with perpetual problems.

PAF does a fine job in raising the officer standard as it is doing.

Now those are concepts, car sales doesn't teach.

I need you to respect that.
 
And how about in 71 sir they Mig-21, and PAF had very few F-104 in 71 because of spares, with sabers we still manage to defend west Pakistan better than in 65,, the kill and shot ratio is better in 71 then 65 @Humble Analyst
Whatever PAF did in West was tarnished by East. Also bombings on Indian targets were much less. Karachi Oil Tanks were attacked and burned for days. Air Commodore Khaqan Abbasi,the Base Commander of Maripur now Masroor, was investigated for cowardice. He was acquitted from the charged but do not know the details.
Yes agree there was a shortage of spares some spares were bought from International black Market through Iran/Israel.
Let us leave at that.
 
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