MODP report book (2018-2021) confirms Midget Submarine development for PN

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

@The Eagle
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
@JamD

But it seems that they just copied Cosmos Class MG-110.

 

[The Eagle]

View attachment 803146

@The Eagle
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
@JamD

But it seems that they just copied Cosmos Class MG-110.

They could simply share a concept design but here, too lazy and just copied a Midget pic for reference.

 

[farooqbhai007]

They could simply share a concept design but here, too lazy and just copied a Midget pic for reference.

The Cosmos class submarine shown here was built at KSEW

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

The Cosmos class submarine shown here was built at KSEW

What happened to indigenous midget submarine project??
Was project failed??
We never heard of that.

 

[Bossman]

It’s a historical picture, what has been done in the past. All the pictures are

 

[Sulman Badshah]

image is of Cosmos Class MG-110

 

[FuturePAF]

Is the Report referring to this submarine?

H I Sutton - Covert Shores

 

[Pandora]

They are merely refering to older projects they undertook and completed not new ones. Right now Pakistan is looking for off the shelf options for Shallow water subs. Turkish and chinese boats are under consideration but nothing finalised.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

They are merely refering to older projects they undertook and completed not new ones. Right now Pakistan is looking for off the shelf options for Shallow water subs. Turkish and chinese boats are under consideration but nothing finalised.

I think the PN already finalized a SWATS.

I say this based on KSEW's statement from the Hangor SSP steel-cutting ceremony (source):

Besides, a submarine seminar on ‘Technological Advent In Artificial Intelligence: Impact On Sub-Surface Domain’ was also held at Jauhar Auditorium Karachi, highlighting the shape of PN submarine force over next decade after induction of 8 x HANGOR class submarines and SWATS.​

​

I'd wager a guess that the PN already signed a contract with either Italy or Turkey. I wouldn't be surprised if the news about SWATS slipped the public eye. The SWATS probably ties into the most secretive ops goals of the 'Silent Service,' and that's the PN's most secretive branch. @kursed @JamD @SQ8

I'll be a little controversial here and say the 'SWATS' program is different from the 'Mini-SSK.' From what I've heard and read about the PN SWATS program, it's a full-fledged AIP submarine. It's not a low-cost alternative to anything, but the last line of defence between the IN and our coastal assets. It's a critical A2/AD piece meant to knock out enemy ships and subs. The reason why we need a special design is to leverage the acoustic masking from busy shallow waters.

However, I still think an even smaller Mini-SSK is on the horizon. This would be more along the lines of the MG110 for infiltration and frogmen operations. If they configure twin 533 mm tubes plus low-cost FCS, C2, CMS, etc, they can also have a low-cost ASW asset. Something like the Dearsan L-SUB or DRASS DG160 would be cool. Even if you build a lot of these subs, you can store them away until you need them. This line of work can also evolve into 2XLUUVs.

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

DRASS DG160 – DRASS GROUP

www.drass.tech

 

[Pandora]

I think the PN already finalized a SWATS.

I say this based on KSEW's statement from the Hangor SSP steel-cutting ceremony (source):

Besides, a submarine seminar on ‘Technological Advent In Artificial Intelligence: Impact On Sub-Surface Domain’ was also held at Jauhar Auditorium Karachi, highlighting the shape of PN submarine force over next decade ​

I think the PN already finalized a SWATS.

I say this based on KSEW's statement from the Hangor SSP steel-cutting ceremony (source):

Besides, a submarine seminar on ‘Technological Advent In Artificial Intelligence: Impact On Sub-Surface Domain’ was also held at Jauhar Auditorium Karachi, highlighting the shape of PN submarine force over next decade after induction of 8 x HANGOR class submarines and SWATS.​

​

I'd wager a guess that the PN already signed a contract with either Italy or Turkey. I wouldn't be surprised if the news about SWATS slipped the public eye. The SWATS probably ties into the most secretive ops goals of the 'Silent Service,' and that's the PN's most secretive branch. @kursed @JamD @SQ8

I'll be a little controversial here and say the 'SWATS' program is different from the 'Mini-SSK.' From what I've heard and read about the PN SWATS program, it's a full-fledged AIP submarine. It's not a low-cost alternative to anything, but the last line of defence between the IN and our coastal assets. It's a critical A2/AD piece meant to knock out enemy ships and subs. The reason why we need a special design is to leverage the acoustic masking from busy shallow waters.

However, I still think an even smaller Mini-SSK is on the horizon. This would be more along the lines of the MG110 for infiltration and frogmen operations. If they configure twin 533 mm tubes plus low-cost FCS, C2, CMS, etc, they can also have a low-cost ASW asset. Something like the Dearsan L-SUB or DRASS DG160 would be cool. Even if you build a lot of these subs, you can store them away until you need them. This line of work can also evolve into 2XLUUVs.

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

DRASS DG160 – DRASS GROUP

www.drass.tech

Turkey STM and Dearsan both are fielding two seperate designs for subs. Both can be used as an option for SWAT subs. Then there is also this
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/naval-warfare/idef-2021-stm-details-small-submarine-design-forei/

Although you are right a mini sub could still be out there. We might not get to know untill its all done. At the very least they have a template from cosmos class subs.

 

[Rafi]

I think the PN already finalized a SWATS.

I say this based on KSEW's statement from the Hangor SSP steel-cutting ceremony (source):

Besides, a submarine seminar on ‘Technological Advent In Artificial Intelligence: Impact On Sub-Surface Domain’ was also held at Jauhar Auditorium Karachi, highlighting the shape of PN submarine force over next decade after induction of 8 x HANGOR class submarines and SWATS.​

​

I'd wager a guess that the PN already signed a contract with either Italy or Turkey. I wouldn't be surprised if the news about SWATS slipped the public eye. The SWATS probably ties into the most secretive ops goals of the 'Silent Service,' and that's the PN's most secretive branch. @kursed @JamD @SQ8

I'll be a little controversial here and say the 'SWATS' program is different from the 'Mini-SSK.' From what I've heard and read about the PN SWATS program, it's a full-fledged AIP submarine. It's not a low-cost alternative to anything, but the last line of defence between the IN and our coastal assets. It's a critical A2/AD piece meant to knock out enemy ships and subs. The reason why we need a special design is to leverage the acoustic masking from busy shallow waters.

However, I still think an even smaller Mini-SSK is on the horizon. This would be more along the lines of the MG110 for infiltration and frogmen operations. If they configure twin 533 mm tubes plus low-cost FCS, C2, CMS, etc, they can also have a low-cost ASW asset. Something like the Dearsan L-SUB or DRASS DG160 would be cool. Even if you build a lot of these subs, you can store them away until you need them. This line of work can also evolve into 2XLUUVs.

Dearsan

www.dearsan.com

DRASS DG160 – DRASS GROUP

www.drass.tech

Correct, also look out for low pressure reactors in the future.

 

[dBSPL]

Turkey STM and Dearsan both are fielding two seperate designs for subs. Both can be used as an option for SWAT subs. Then there is also this
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/naval-warfare/idef-2021-stm-details-small-submarine-design-forei/

Although you are right a mini sub could still be out there. We might not get to know untill its all done. At the very least they have a template from cosmos class subs.

More than known studies are ongoing in Turkey on the subject. There will be many surprises in the coming years and I do not think that all of these systems are advancing at the request of the Turkish navy. I know that especially STM's midget submarine works are not shaped by the needs of the Turkish navy. Many of these projects are carried out in accordance with international needs and with equity.

There are also other type sub-sea vehicle concepts among these works. For example, Kuasar Marin KM-STC-10 (Subsea Transfer Craft-STC); It is being developed as a sea vehicle designed to go both on and under water.

The lower part of the hull form is designed to be able to make high speed above water, while the upper part is designed to have low resistance underwater. It moves by means of a water jet driven by a diesel engine above water, and by electric motors powered by batteries underwater. It is designed to make a maximum speed of 27 knots above water, 25 knots continuously, and 4 knots underwater. The KM-STC10 will be managed by two operators and can carry 6 special forces personnel in addition. It will be possible for the vehicle to be transported by ship or parachuted from the air near the operation area. It will be able to maintain its secrecy by operating in semi-submerged mode, snorkeling depth or fully underwater mode in the operation area. It will be equipped with a night vision camera on the movable mast, thermal camera devices and a body-mounted forward-looking active sonar system.

 

[Pandora]

More than known studies are ongoing in Turkey on the subject. There will be many surprises in the coming years and I do not think that all of these systems are advancing at the request of the Turkish navy. I know that especially STM's midget submarine works are not shaped by the needs of the Turkish navy. Many of these projects are carried out in accordance with international needs and with equity.

There are also other type sub-sea vehicle concepts among these works. For example, Kuasar Marin KM-STC-10 (Subsea Transfer Craft-STC); It is being developed as a sea vehicle designed to go both on and under water.

The lower part of the hull form is designed to be able to make high speed above water, while the upper part is designed to have low resistance underwater. It moves by means of a water jet driven by a diesel engine above water, and by electric motors powered by batteries underwater. It is designed to make a maximum speed of 27 knots above water, 25 knots continuously, and 4 knots underwater. The KM-STC10 will be managed by two operators and can carry 6 special forces personnel in addition. It will be possible for the vehicle to be transported by ship or parachuted from the air near the operation area. It will be able to maintain its secrecy by operating in semi-submerged mode, snorkeling depth or fully underwater mode in the operation area. It will be equipped with a night vision camera on the movable mast, thermal camera devices and a body-mounted forward-looking active sonar system.

Light attack subs are very important for Turkey. Shallow waters around turkey will make it near impossible to track such subs. For Pakistan we need twin solutions bcz we have need for Hangoor class for long range deployment or offensive ops and then shallow water subs for defensive ops. Midget are mainly for frogman ops as area around Pakistan and Indian coast is very conductive for special ops.

I am not sure about dual use or semi submerged crafts as they are easily detectable by ASW helis and aircrafts. A proper midget sub has its own dedicated place in naval warfare.