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MoD backs indigenous HAL trainer, air force to visit HAL for discussions

sasi

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Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd ( HAL) is continuing to develop a made-in-India basic trainer aircraft (BTA), despite Indian Air Force(IAF) attempts to scupper the project. On Monday, a team of top IAF officers will visit Bangalore to discuss with HAL the proposal and roadmap for an Indian trainer, dubbed the Hindustan Turbo Trainer¨C40 (HTT-40).
Last month, IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, had personally targeted the HTT-40. Writing to Defence Minister AK Antony, Browne asked him to scrap the indigenous trainer, and instead buy 106 BTAs from Swiss company, Pilatus.
Already, on May 24, 2012, the IAF had bought 75 Pilatus PC-7Mark II trainers for Rs4,000 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million). Browne additionally demanded the purchase of 38 more trainers underan 'Option Clause'; and then 68 more as 'Repeat Procurement'. For Pilatus, that means contracts worth Rs 6,000 crore (Swiss Franc 848 million) without further tendering.
And for HAL it would mean an end to the HTT-40, which it has defiantly pursued, evencommitting Rs 150 crore of internal funds into the project.
Top defence ministry (MoD) decision-makers have serious concerns about the air chief¡¯s request. In end-July Business Standard had revealed serious factual inaccuracies in Browne¡¯s letter to Mr Antony. The IAF chief had argued for scrapping the HTT-40 by claiming that the PC-7 MarkII costs Rs 30 crore, far cheaper than the HTT-40. But his calculations were outdated, since the sliding rupee had raised thecost of each PC-7 Mark II (Swiss Francs 6.09 million) to Rs 40 crore. Today each PC-7 Mark II will cost over Rs 43.6 crore.
Furthermore, the IAF apparently flouted rules by changing some 12 benchmarks between Marchand October 2009, including parameters relating to pilot safety. These changes brought the PC-7 Mark II into compliance with IAF requirements, eventually winning the contract.
The CBI enquiry into the VVIP helicopter purchase fromAgusta Westland is centred on how requirements were changed.
On Aug 12, at the launching of INS Vikramaditya in Kochi, Mr Antony had bluntly stated that the HTT-40 project would continue.
Also raising eyebrows within the MoD is the alacrity with which the IAF grounded the HPT-32 trainer after a fatal crash in 2009, creatinga pilot training crisis that opened the door for the purchase of the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II.
The HPT-32 was labelled unsafe after 19 pilots were killed in 17 accidents over23 years of flying, during which the HPT-32 logged 4,00,000 flighthours. That is less than one crash per year on average.
In contrast, the IAF continues to fly the MiG-21,despite a far more horrific safety record. In Jun 2003, then IAF head,Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy,revealed that 98 MiG-21 crashes had occurred in 5,53,000 sorties between 1994-2003, claiming 43 lives --- a record twice as bad as the HPT-32.
MiG fighters have sustained this trend over four decades. According to figures tabled in parliament by Mr Antony, 482 IAF MiGs (of all types) have crashed over the years, killing 171 IAF pilots, 8 other servicemen, and 39 civilians.
Senior MoD officials are now questioning whether the HPT-32 was deliberately grounded to make way for foreign trainers. Grounding the MiG-21 would not have led to import. It would only have increased pressure on the IAF to order the Tejas LCA in larger numbers.
On Jun 25, 2003, when asked why the IAF continued with the MiG-21 despite so many crashes, Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy retorted, 'It is my responsibility to exploit every IAF aircraft to the end of its service life. I can¡¯t just throw out serviceable aircraft, demanding modernisation.'
Today, the IAF is throwing out 110 HPT-32. The majority of them are good to continue till 2018-2024, even if they fly 250 hours per year, a reasonable average for a trainer.
More than 2000 IAF pilots --- including the IAF chief and his son, a Sukhoi-30MKI pilot --- have learned to fly on the HPT-32.
MoD sources confirm that HAL has thrice offered to develop a successor to the HPT-32, but the IAF has stymied each proposal.The HAL Chairman in 1985, Air Marshal LM Katre, who would go on to become IAF chief, fitted a more powerful engine to the HPT-32, creating a newtrainer --- called HTT-34 --- which obtained full certification. But the IAF inexplicably refused to accept it.
In July 1993, HAL again sentthe IAF a detailed 'Project Definition Phase Report' for a new trainer. The IAF again did not respond. Again, in Feb 2004, HAL submitted a detailed proposal to Air Headquarters. Again there was no response.

MoD backs indigenous HAL trainer, air force to visit HAL for discussions | Business Standard
 
The point of the matter is---------

Where is the trainer loudmouth HAL...............DID IT GET IOC AND FOC??

But yes here IAF's actions seem a bit fishy too..............although HAL should first develop the trainer and then raise such issues,,,the trainer in question is just not ready yet and once ready the delivery will be too damn slow considering the HAL's world beating SLOW SPEED
 
FFS!! Has this trainer even flown yet?? When will this trainer be ready for delivery?? 2020??


The IAF has a clause in their orginal contract for another 100+ PC-7s that it wants to take up. It needs around 200 BTT. Now HAL have thrown a spanner in the works the IAF is going to be utterly screwed for at least another decade on this front- they won't have the requisite number of BTTs to train new pilots and the frakking nightmare scenario of pilots not being given enough flight hours during training will continue- AHHHH.


HAL is very good at making promises but HAL's promises get Indian pilots killed- where is the LCA?? WHERE IS THE IJT FFS?


And then the IAF is expected to operate two DIFFERENT types of BTT??
 
Instead of wasting time on trainer, they should concentrate more on ongoing confirmed projects, saving manpower, resources and money. These factors if utilized properly can atleast speed the other projectS.

They should shed this "Governmental Office" work ethics and behavioral patternS.
 
And does anyone else notice the frakking sick twist the writer does. All but implying the IAF is upto something devious by- heaven forbid- going for a tried and tested (and CHEAPER) product that it has already got in service ie the PC-7. "Without going for a global tender" you FRAKKING MORAN- this is the norm, there is a clause in the contract for a follow-on order- why should the IAF to through the arduous task of another global tender when it has already settled on the PC-7??!! Did the IAF go for a global tender before ordering follow-on MKIs, or A-50EIs, or etc, this is the norm -THIS GUYS STUPIDITY AND DOWNRIGHT DESCEPTION DISGUSTS AND APPALS ME.
 
The question why HPT 32 is grounded while MiG 21 is still flying is utter stupidity.
You don't fly frontline sorties in your combat jet and not in your piston trainer. Also, you don't train your rookies in an aircraft with design flaws.
 
MoD sources confirm that HAL has thrice offered to develop a successor to the HPT-32, but the IAF has stymied each proposal.The HAL Chairman in 1985, Air Marshal LM Katre, who would go on to become IAF chief, fitted a more powerful engine to the HPT-32, creating a newtrainer --- called HTT-34 --- which obtained full certification. But the IAF inexplicably refused to accept it.
In July 1993, HAL again sentthe IAF a detailed 'Project Definition Phase Report' for a new trainer. The IAF again did not respond. Again, in Feb 2004, HAL submitted a detailed proposal to Air Headquarters. Again there was no response.
 
MoD sources confirm that HAL has thrice offered to develop a successor to the HPT-32, but the IAF has stymied each proposal.The HAL Chairman in 1985, Air Marshal LM Katre, who would go on to become IAF chief, fitted a more powerful engine to the HPT-32, creating a newtrainer --- called HTT-34 --- which obtained full certification. But the IAF inexplicably refused to accept it.
In July 1993, HAL again sentthe IAF a detailed 'Project Definition Phase Report' for a new trainer. The IAF again did not respond. Again, in Feb 2004, HAL submitted a detailed proposal to Air Headquarters. Again there was no response.

U may be right but now where is the htt-40??
 
U may be right but now where is the htt-40??

since htt-40 is nowhere in sight. Why iaf is rushing up to procure pc-7 immediately? Why they don't wait until 2017? If htt-40 not ready they go for options!
As u know, that current order for pc-7 will delivered onlyby 2015.
If follow on order of 38 is pressed. It will take 2017 to complete it.
IAF wants another 68(?) pc-7 without retendering that too it delivery will takeplace at the start of 2018 period.
Browne is lobbying for pc-7 with inaccurate logic.
 
since htt-40 is nowhere in sight. Why iaf is rushing up to procure pc-7 immediately? Why they don't wait until 2017? If htt-40 not ready they go for options!
As u know, that current order for pc-7 will delivered onlyby 2015.
If follow on order of 38 is pressed. It will take 2017 to complete it.
IAF wants another 68(?) pc-7 without retendering that too it delivery will takeplace at the start of 2018 period.
Browne is lobbying for pc-7 with inaccurate logic.

No no we need these trainers urgently........on the other hand pls come to my bae hawk thread and look whats happening!!!
 
And does anyone else notice the frakking sick twist the writer does. All but implying the IAF is upto something devious by- heaven forbid- going for a tried and tested (and CHEAPER) product that it has already got in service ie the PC-7. "Without going for a global tender" you FRAKKING MORAN- this is the norm, there is a clause in the contract for a follow-on order- why should the IAF to through the arduous task of another global tender when it has already settled on the PC-7??!! Did the IAF go for a global tender before ordering follow-on MKIs, or A-50EIs, or etc, this is the norm -THIS GUYS STUPIDITY AND DOWNRIGHT DESCEPTION DISGUSTS AND APPALS ME.

writer doesn't twist it. follow on clause is for 38 acs. Next they have to tender.
 
MoD sources confirm that HAL has thrice offered to develop a successor to the HPT-32, but the IAF has stymied each proposal.The HAL Chairman in 1985, Air Marshal LM Katre, who would go on to become IAF chief, fitted a more powerful engine to the HPT-32, creating a newtrainer --- called HTT-34 --- which obtained full certification. But the IAF inexplicably refused to accept it.
In July 1993, HAL again sentthe IAF a detailed 'Project Definition Phase Report' for a new trainer. The IAF again did not respond. Again, in Feb 2004, HAL submitted a detailed proposal to Air Headquarters. Again there was no response.

The HTT 34 had just an engine upgrade and lacked all the features a new gen trainer would've had,like a Tandem cockpit..
HTT-35+at+Aero+India+1993-2.JPG

HTT-35+at+Aero+India+1993-2.JPG

Thats the mock up of HTT 40,then HTT 35 back in 1990. Why didn't HAL actually make an example? IAF is a customer,not a developer. They are interested in finished products,not proposals or ideas.
 
The HTT 34 had just an engine upgrade and lacked all the features a new gen trainer would've had,like a Tandem cockpit..
HTT-35+at+Aero+India+1993-2.JPG

HTT-35+at+Aero+India+1993-2.JPG

Thats the mock up of HTT 40,then HTT 35 back in 1990. Why didn't HAL actually make an example? IAF is a customer,not a developer. They are interested in finished products,not proposals or ideas.

but they fucked up in hawk mk132 procurement and in my opinion they should stop the contract now
 

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