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There is absolutely no reference to a Department of Islamic Reconstruction in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan. The burden of Proof lies with the Party (of pathological liars like Orya and Safdar) making the claim that not only such a Department existed, Jinnah himself had appointed Muhammad Asad as its Chairman. So far they have failed to produce even a shred of evidence from primary source documents proving their case. .. So hard for you to understand such a simple thing ??

That is what I am saying...same goes for those who say Quaid e Azaam said "...not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise."

You see the best propaganda is a mixture of Truth and Falsehood. So we have to determine how much Truth and how much Falsehood...
I am personally convinced that there was such a department but what you have presented raised the question of was it directly commissioned by Quaid E Azaam or not? Was it a national endeavour or just a provincial one? That is another question for me to answer.

In the film A Road to Mecca http://www.mischief-films.com/medialibrary/film_road_to_mecca/A_Road_to_Mekka_Presskit_en.pdf by Georg Misch, it is mentioned about Muhammad Asad being in this Dept in Pakistan and also being part of the Foreign Ministry. Now this could be a lie as part of propaganda or a honest mistake or indeed the truth. I think I will have to email the academic advisor to the film, Guenther Windhager.

Coming onto the discussion at hand, I am convinced by what you have presented that Quaid E Azaam did consider Ahmadis as Muslims, and that he said that no individual has the right to go around saying they are not. However I am not so convinced on the bit about "...not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise." ...Like I said the best propaganda is a mixture of Truth and Falsehood.

This is not to say that even if Quaid e Azaam did say this bit about the sovereign legislature, that would make Pakistan's Second Constitutional amendment null and void. It would just be Quaid E Azaam's opinion.
I just want to make sure that false statements have not been attributed to Quaid e Azaam...(I am sure this is the case in many aspects as part of propaganda like the one about the Dept of Islamic reconstruction, )....
 
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That is what I am saying...same goes for those who say Quaid e Azaam said "...not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise."

No, it's not the same. Those who claim that the Quaid also said "...not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise." on May , 5, 1944, besides saying that "Ahmadis are Muslims if they say they are Muslims and I have no right to say otherwise" only attribute a statement to Jinnah that although perfectly consistent with his views expressed on different occasions, has to be verified/backed up by reliable primary source(s). And Yasir Latif Hamdani should be asked to provide his source. But it is in no way comparable to the outrageous claim made by Orya and Co. that not only a Govt. of Pakistan Department of Islamic Reconstruction existed, Jinnah himself had appointed Muhammad Asad as its Chairman. What we know is that there is absolutely no reference to any such Department in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan and there is no mention of Muhammad Asad in Jinnah Papers.




In the film A Road to Mecca http://www.mischief-films.com/medialibrary/film_road_to_mecca/A_Road_to_Mekka_Presskit_en.pdf by Georg Misch, it is mentioned about Muhammad Asad being in this Dept in Pakistan and also being part of the Foreign Ministry. Now this could be a lie as part of propaganda or a honest mistake or indeed the truth. I think I will have to email the academic advisor to the film, Guenther Windhager.

That documentary is based on Muhammad Asad's autobiography; The Road to Mecca ... Muhammad Asad writes:

When Pakistan was established in 1947, I was called uроп Ьу its Government to organize and direct Department of Islamic Reconstruction, which was to elaborate the ideological Islamic concepts of statehood and community цроп which the newly born political organization might draw. After two years of this extremely stimulating activity, I transferred to the Pakistan Foreign Service and was appointed Head of the Middle East Division in the Foreign Ministry, where I dedicated myself to strengthening the ties between Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world; and in due course I found myself in Pakistan's Mission to the United Nations at New York.

http://muhammad-asad.com/Road-to-Mecca.pdf


Muhammad Asad has mentioned in his book "The Principles of State and Government in Islam" that his ideas were first set forth in his essay "Islamic Constitution-Making " published by the Government of West Punjab in March 1948. No further details have been given by Muhammad Asad. He, however has made no mention of Jinnah or Pakistan Federal Government ... And Even in the alleged picture of The Department of Islamic Reconstruction presented by Orya and co. it clearly says "Government of West Panjab" ..



Soon after his arrival in Lahore, Asad was called by Nawab of Mamdot, the first Chief Minister of Western Punjab who sought advice on the possible ideological contours of the new country. Asad suggested setting up of an organization to examine this issue. Mamdot agreed and thus he came to design, set up and head the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. Explaining the aims and objectives of the Department in an interview broadcast over Radio Pakistan in October 1947, Asad observed that it was the only government department of its time anywhere in the Muslim world to carry the word ‘Islamic’ in its title. He added, “All that we are expected to do – all that we can legitimately do – is to help the community to co-ordinate its spiritual and intellectual resources and to revive the moral strength of which the Millat must be capable by virtue of its being the Millat of Islam; in other words to help the Millat to re-create the Islamic atmosphere so necessary for a revival of Islamic life in its practical aspects.”

A few weeks later the Chief Minister asked him to draw up a Memorandum on the lines of his article Towards Islamic Constitution which would be published by the government of Punjab and may come to the notice of the Central government.The Memorandum was soon written and published. It generated sufficient interest in the capital city that led to Asad being called to Karachi to meet with Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who advised him to write in more detail on the subject of Islamic Constitution.

http://www.criterion-quarterly.com/muhammad-asad-the-story-of-a-story-of-a-story/


So saying that Jinnah himself set up a Department of Islamic Reconstruction and appointed Muhammad Asad as its head is nothing more than a blatant lie, concocted by pathological liars like Orya Maqbool Jan ..
 
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Tried opening this website and it's banned where I am at. I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

Also, there were a few false prophets after the passing away of Muhammad(PBUH and his family) and from what I have read; they were actually fought with.

In terms of forming the laws of our country, I reckon there has to be an underlying morality and sense of justice which everyone would agree on, and what better book than the Quran? The problem with secularism is that there's no set morality...there's no "anchor". For instance almost all the laws were based upon the morality derived from Judeo-Christian traditions (though that's not the case any longer).
 
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It doesn't make sense to raze a building even if they wished to renovate or convert it to a museum.

Both the Lahori group and Qadiyani group should have been allowed to fight their case in courts. After demise of Mr G.A. Mirza they have been at odds with each other, it mainly involved financial and monetary disputes actually ... same like ....... jaidad aur meeras ki takseem.

Off Topic:

Our Qadiyani friends never once replied to my repeated question ........ i.e. even if we accept the "Stamp of Messenger" interpretation ....... then where is stamp for Mr G.A. Mirza? And this is ridiculous actually that G.A. Mirza himself declared others Kafir meaning he identified himself and his followers separately, in a way Qadiyanis today are going against his wishes. Plus every Messenger, Prophet and Messenger Prophet was given a book, where is G. A. Mirza's book? Koi to bolo ........
 
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It doesn't make sense to raze a building even if they wished to renovate or convert it to a museum.

Both the Lahori group and Qadiyani group should have been allowed to fight their case in courts. After demise of Mr G.A. Mirza they have been at odds with each other, it mainly involved financial and monetary disputes actually ... same like ....... jaidad aur meeras ki takseem.

Off Topic:

Our Qadiyani friends never once replied to my repeated question ........ i.e. even if we accept the "Stamp of Messenger" interpretation ....... then where is stamp for Mr G.A. Mirza? And this is ridiculous actually that G.A. Mirza himself declared others Kafir meaning he identified himself and his followers separately, in a way Qadiyanis today are going against his wishes. Plus every Messenger, Prophet and Messenger Prophet was given a book, where is G. A. Mirza's book? Koi to bolo ........
He claimed to write 50 chapters of Rohani khazains and collected the charity but ends up writing only 5...when people ask about 45 more, he replied his 5 volumes are equals to 50....google it and read what fetish he wrote...

During debate in National assembly Mirza Tahir replied to a question from Z.A Bhutto that he don't consider Muslims who don't follow Mr. Qadiani and upon hearing that Z.A Bhutto said now it is matter that either 99% declared Kafirs or 1% people.
 
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Tried opening this website and it's banned where I am at.


Prerequisites of being a progressive Muslim

A progressive Muslim is one whose actions are firmly grounded in the Quranic values of truth, justice, compassion, wisdom, and he or she does service to others rather than being served by others. A progressive Muslim does not believe in sectarian Islam (Sunni, Shia or Ismaili, Ahl-i-Hadith or Salafi streak), but rises above all these sects and gives importance to the Quran above everything else.

Adhering to progressive Islam one does not adopt a sectarian approach, but is respectful of entire humanity, and of human dignity as per the Quran: We have honored the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favors, above a great part of our creation (17:70).

Thus, one leaves ideological and theological differences to Allah alone and does not condemn anyone who differs with oneself as kafir, as often many sectarian-minded Muslims do. Such an approach widens the differences and intensifies conflict. A progressive Muslim uses, as per the Quran, wisdom and goodly words in discussions. He does not try to be judgmental.

A progressive Muslim is least influenced by personal prejudices and always gives more importance to knowledge than his own opinion. The Quran condemns prejudiced opinion and promotes knowledge. Also, openness of mind is a seminal quality which helps avoid arrogance born more out of ignorance than knowledge. Those who have little knowledge are more arrogant and those who have a greater degree of knowledge know the limitations of their own knowledge and hence tend to be humble.

A progressive Muslim first of all studies his/her own religion in depth and tries to understand as objectively as possible the causes of differences between different religions while showing full respect to the beliefs of others. It is those who do not know their own religion, much less that of others, who condemn the religion of others. The Quran says: And abuse not those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest, exceeding the limits they abuse Allah through ignorance (6:109).

Further in the same verse, Allah says, Thus to everyone people have We made their deeds fair-seeming; then to their Lord is their return so He will inform them of what they did. Thus ultimately it is Allah who will judge. We human beings, when we judge, we judge more out of ignorance and arrogance of our own ego than based on knowledge and selflessness.

The key words in this verse are that for every people We made their deeds fair-seeming to them. Then who are we human beings to condemn the beliefs and deeds of others? Let Allah alone be the judge of who is right and who is wrong in their beliefs.

A progressive Muslim celebrates pluralism, as diversity is the creation of Allah. If Allah had desired He could have made entire humanity one community. (5:48). The Quran also says, And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colours. Surely there are signs in this for the learned. Thus, a progressive Muslim will never have any prejudice against the speakers of any language or the people of any color or creed, for they are all creations of Allah.

Likewise, both men and women are the creation of Allah and both need to be treated with the same degree of dignity. Allah has created all species in couples and it is necessary for survival of all species. No species will survive unless it is created in couples. Thus the feminine of the couple is as important as the masculine, and in human beings both genders must be treated equally. Gender relations reflect social and cultural constructs while equality and fair play are Islamic values.

A progressive Muslim knows this and treats both men and women with equal dignity, ensuring equal rights to both. In todays context, gender equality becomes a crucial test for a progressive Muslim. Female servitude was purely a feudal cultural creation; Islam opposes it and pronounces the doctrine of gender equality in clear terms (2:228). A progressive Muslim knows that certain Sharia provisions establishing male superiority were in response to the cultural needs of a patriarchal society rather than based on the Quran.

Thus, a progressive Muslim will give importance to Quranic pronouncements in gender-related matters and not condone the feudal female servitude, considering such provisions of existing Sharia laws as eternal and unalterable. A progressive Muslim, therefore, would strive to reconstruct Sharia laws today in order to accord rights to women which the Quran gives them. One believer cannot be superior to another believer. Male superiority is a human construct and human construct cannot override divine injunctions. Also, physical differences, i.e. bearing children, etc. should not result in determining who is superior or inferior.

A progressive Muslim would also accord seeking knowledge priority, as knowledge has been equated with light, and ignorance with darkness. Allah brings out believers from darkness to light. Thus knowledge has priority even over worship.

These are some of the characteristics of being a progressive Muslim. Those who imbibe these characteristics will survive the challenges of time and not face difficulty in keeping pace with changing reality.
http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=10006
 
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Also, there were a few false prophets after the passing away of Muhammad(PBUH and his family) and from what I have read; they were actually fought with.

Anyone who spreads Fitna and Fasad on Allah's land is liable to punishment.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's case however is a different one. He had declared himself the bearer of a new inspiration, and while laying claim in some ambiguous terms to prophethood simultaneously denied being a Prophet.

“I have heard that some leading Ulama of this city Delhi are giving publicity to the allegation against me that I lay claim to prophethood. ... I respectfully state to all these gentlemen that these allegations are an entire fabrication. I do not make a claim to prophethood. ... After the Holy Prophet Muhammad, I consider anyone who claims prophethood and messengership to be a liar and unbeliever.”
Statement issued in Delhi, 2 October 1891. MI, 1986 edition, vol. 1, pp. 230-231... ...


After Ghulam Aḥmad’s death, his followers disputed whether he had really claimed to be a prophet and, if so, what he meant by his prophethood. Even Maulana Maudoodi had to concede that those Ahmadis (i.e.the Lahori Group) who do not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a Prophet cannot be declared Non Muslims.

In terms of forming the laws of our country, I reckon there has to be an underlying morality and sense of justice which everyone would agree on, and what better book than the Quran? The problem with secularism is that there's no set morality...there's no "anchor". For instance almost all the laws were based upon the morality derived from Judeo-Christian traditions (though that's not the case any longer).

Muslim Philosophers like Ibn e Rushd (d.1198) are considered "founding father of modern secular thought" in western Europe ... Secularism is not as "western" as Mullahs would have us believe.
 
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You of course are entitled to your opinion. I agree with Jinnah Sahib

"Ahmadis are Muslims if they say they are Muslims & NO ONE, not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise." - Jinnah (May 5, 1944)
source
 
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No, it's not the same. Those who claim that the Quaid also said "...not even the sovereign legislature has the right to say otherwise." on May , 5, 1944, besides saying that "Ahmadis are Muslims if they say they are Muslims and I have no right to say otherwise" only attribute a statement to Jinnah that although perfectly consistent with his views expressed on different occasions, has to be verified/backed up by reliable primary source(s). And Yasir Latif Hamdani should be asked to provide his source. But it is in no way comparable to the outrageous claim made by Orya and Co. that not only a Govt. of Pakistan Department of Islamic Reconstruction existed, Jinnah himself had appointed Muhammad Asad as its Chairman. What we know is that there is absolutely no reference to any such Department in any of the official documents of the Government of Pakistan and there is no mention of Muhammad Asad in Jinnah Papers.






That documentary is based on Muhammad Asad's autobiography; The Road to Mecca ... Muhammad Asad writes:

When Pakistan was established in 1947, I was called uроп Ьу its Government to organize and direct Department of Islamic Reconstruction, which was to elaborate the ideological Islamic concepts of statehood and community цроп which the newly born political organization might draw. After two years of this extremely stimulating activity, I transferred to the Pakistan Foreign Service and was appointed Head of the Middle East Division in the Foreign Ministry, where I dedicated myself to strengthening the ties between Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world; and in due course I found myself in Pakistan's Mission to the United Nations at New York.

http://muhammad-asad.com/Road-to-Mecca.pdf


Muhammad Asad has mentioned in his book "The Principles of State and Government in Islam" that his ideas were first set forth in his essay "Islamic Constitution-Making " published by the Government of West Punjab in March 1948. No further details have been given by Muhammad Asad. He, however has made no mention of Jinnah or Pakistan Federal Government ... And Even in the alleged picture of The Department of Islamic Reconstruction presented by Orya and co. it clearly says "Government of West Panjab" ..



Soon after his arrival in Lahore, Asad was called by Nawab of Mamdot, the first Chief Minister of Western Punjab who sought advice on the possible ideological contours of the new country. Asad suggested setting up of an organization to examine this issue. Mamdot agreed and thus he came to design, set up and head the Department of Islamic Reconstruction. Explaining the aims and objectives of the Department in an interview broadcast over Radio Pakistan in October 1947, Asad observed that it was the only government department of its time anywhere in the Muslim world to carry the word ‘Islamic’ in its title. He added, “All that we are expected to do – all that we can legitimately do – is to help the community to co-ordinate its spiritual and intellectual resources and to revive the moral strength of which the Millat must be capable by virtue of its being the Millat of Islam; in other words to help the Millat to re-create the Islamic atmosphere so necessary for a revival of Islamic life in its practical aspects.”

A few weeks later the Chief Minister asked him to draw up a Memorandum on the lines of his article Towards Islamic Constitution which would be published by the government of Punjab and may come to the notice of the Central government.The Memorandum was soon written and published. It generated sufficient interest in the capital city that led to Asad being called to Karachi to meet with Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan who advised him to write in more detail on the subject of Islamic Constitution.

http://www.criterion-quarterly.com/muhammad-asad-the-story-of-a-story-of-a-story/


So saying that Jinnah himself set up a Department of Islamic Reconstruction and appointed Muhammad Asad as its head is nothing more than a blatant lie, concocted by pathological liars like Orya Maqbool Jan ..
So if Muhammad Asad's biography is true, he did work at a Dept of Islamic reconstruction, but at a provincial level in West Punjab?
So one cannot say that no such thing did NOT exist at all.
 
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So one cannot say that no such thing did NOT exist at all.

Not at a national/federal level. If it was that big of a deal it should have been at that particular level to be honest.
 
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Not at a national/federal level. If it was that big of a deal it should have been at that particular level to be honest.


So it did exist. There was a Muhammad Asad in Pakistan! An Ashkenzai Jewish convert from the erstwhile Austro-Hungary Empire! Who became a Pakistani citizen and headed up a Dept of Islamic Reconstruction at a provincial level with the intention of reconstructing at least in West Punjab.

This to me is still a big thing! This is not a small deal.

And maybe it could have gone federal...but I wonder what happened to it?
 
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So it did exist. There was a Muhammad Asad in Pakistan! An Ashkenzai Jewish convert from the erstwhile Austro-Hungary Empire! Who became a Pakistani citizen and headed up a Dept of Islamic Reconstruction at a provincial level with the intention of reconstructing at least in West Punjab.

This to me is still a big thing! This is not a small deal.

And maybe it could have gone federal...but I wonder what happened to it?

Bro you know something, it all does sound quite good. No doubt, I would like to believe it too and God knows no one more than me would like to see at least the most basic of Islamic laws being applied in Pakistan (which are more or less the same across the various sects). I think no sect disputes the laws in regards to the desired punishment for corruption, debauchery/hedonism, murder, usurpation of rights, protection of non-Muslims, rights of privacy, rights of individuals, robbery, thievery, bribery etc.

In my honest opinion all this talk of falana amendment, falani body, falana individual stating this and that, bla bla bla....they are nothing more than a major distraction from the real, raw issue...i.e. the ruling elite and the upper middle/middle class (a good majority of the city dwellers)...the supposed civil society. They are the ones who set the trends and rule over the nation (that's the law of the nature). Aap mujhsey likhwa ley, jub tak yeh log khud Islam kay saath sincere nahi hogey yeh baki saari baatein sou feesad fuzool hai. Believe you me and I am not exaggerating, I have come to know them inside out and they want anything BUT ISLAM. They are one of the most staunchest enemies of Islam. Jub tak Senators, Generals, aur Bureaucrats kay bachay khud masjid mein namazein nahi adaa karey gey along with the general public aap bhool jaye baki saari cheezein. To them, religion is for phuddus.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic officially but a Banana Republic of Hypocrisy in reality. Aap hazaar qanoon likhwa ley Islam kay naam par they will never be implemented and they will be utterly useless.
 
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Bro you know something, it all does sound quite good. No doubt, I would like to believe it too and God knows no one more than me would like to see at least the most basic of Islamic laws being applied in Pakistan (which are more or less the same across the various sects). I think no sect disputes the laws in regards to the desired punishment for corruption, debauchery/hedonism, murder, usurpation of rights, protection of non-Muslims, rights of privacy, rights of individuals, robbery, thievery, bribery etc.

In my honest opinion all this talk of falana amendment, falani body, falana individual stating this and that, bla bla bla....they are nothing more than a major distraction from the real, raw issue...i.e. the ruling elite and the upper middle/middle class (a good majority of the city dwellers)...the supposed civil society. They are the ones who set the trends and rule over the nation (that's the law of the nature). Aap mujhsey likhwa ley, jub tak yeh log khud Islam kay saath sincere nahi hogey yeh baki saari baatein sou feesad fuzool hai. Believe you me and I am not exaggerating, I have come to know them inside out and they want anything BUT ISLAM. They are one of the most staunchest enemies of Islam. Jub tak Senators, Generals, aur Bureaucrats kay bachay khud masjid mein namazein nahi adaa karey gey along with the general public aap bhool jaye baki saari cheezein. To them, religion is for phuddus.

Pakistan is an Islamic Republic officially but a Banana Republic of Hypocrisy in reality. Aap hazaar qanoon likhwa ley Islam kay naam par they will never be implemented and they will be utterly useless.
I suspect that it was those types ("brainwashed" elites) that did not like the work that Muhammad Asad was doing...

I have met them in real life also and also there are plenty on PDF as well. I think the best thing is to expose them, once that is done, the sincere Pakistanis can then identify them and then are less likely to fall for their "charms"...
once they say openly that they don't want Islam to have a public role in the economic, political and social affairs of the nation, then it becomes easier to tackle this issue, but they are cunning and don't say this openly....usually...
 
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I suspect that it was those types ("brainwashed" elites) that did not like the work that Muhammad Asad was doing...

I have met them in real life also and also there are plenty on PDF as well. I think the best thing is to expose them, once that is done, the sincere Pakistanis can then identify them and then are less likely to fall for their "charms"...
once they say openly that they don't want Islam to have a public role in the economic, political and social affairs of the nation, then it becomes easier to tackle this issue, but they are cunning and don't say this openly....usually...

Ok I have a question, there're certain religious/conservative parties in Pakistan, right? How much is their vote bank and why? Sincere Pakistanis doesn't necessarily mean religious Pakistanis merey bhai...yeh tou baat hai. Sharabi kababi think they are very nationalistic as well.

Tell you what, go to a cinema tomorrow and check out the crowd...it's the crowd that matters in terms of numbers, finances, education and influences. Check out the things they're in to...check out the way they are dressed...they way they talk. Just make genuine observations. Next thing, go the mosques and make the same observations where you'll find that the vast majority is lower/jahil tabqa. This is the sort of joke this qom has played with Islam...aur ab paani ko taras rahay hai. "Sincere Pakistanis" is a very subjective and loose term.

EDIT: Islam is a serious religion which require a basic level of dignity, humility, personality and character. This is my opinion. Pakistani qom is not ready for it. The maskhari clown qom still haven't achieved the basics.
 
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Ok I have a question, there're certain religious/conservative parties in Pakistan, right? How much is their vote bank and why? Sincere Pakistanis doesn't necessarily mean religious Pakistanis merey bhai...yeh tou baat hai. Sharabi kababi think they are very nationalistic as well.

Tell you what, go to a cinema tomorrow and check out the crowd...it's the crowd that matters in terms of numbers, finances, education and influences. Check out the things they're in to...check out the way they are dressed...they way they talk. Just make genuine observations. Next thing, go the mosques and make the same observations where you'll find that the vast majority is lower/jahil tabqa. This is the sort of joke this qom has played with Islam...aur ab paani ko taras rahay hai. "Sincere Pakistanis" is a very subjective and loose term.

EDIT: Islam is a serious religion which require a basic level of dignity, humility, personality and character. This is my opinion. Pakistani qom is not ready for it. The maskhari clown qom still haven't achieved the basics.
By sincere I meant those Pakistanis who are sincere to the Religion of Abraham (PBUH) and are trying their best to understand and implement it in their lives...

It is sad that the most "educated" Pakistanis are generally apathetic to the Deen...once upon a time this was not so...
 
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