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MMRCA Rafale And Cancellation Threats

Indian politicians seems to have trolled innocent brainwashed Indians. :cry: The fact remains that, GOI can't afford the money with complete TOT & went to france for soft loans which france was unable to hand out due to the current economic downturn. And also they R not idiots to hand over decades of hard work on R & D to any x, y, z countries.. Btw its nothing to get upset about Indians, U guys should accept the fact that the whole world doesn't revolve around bollywood fantasized world.:)

We are talking about BIG money and BIG toys.

Stay out of it.
 
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If money had to be saved, Apache should have been cancelled. I agree with Sancho. It is an expensive luxury, not a necessity considering that literally over hundred domestic attack choppers are being ordered.
 
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I have been following news events and looking for STRONG VIBES that this deal would and SHOULD HAVE been nearing its conclusion.

But ALL THE VIBES coming out of India MOD and Dassult are of stalemate.

WHAT WE ALL THOUGHT WHERE A 100% CAST IRON garanttee for winning this bid ie AESA TOT, engine technology crystal blade, and sharing weapons technology have stumbling blocks.

THE FRENCH do not want HAL to play a significant part BUT instead DICTATE terms with indian private players.

IN THE MEAN TIME IAF falling nos GOES ON. to barely 31 squdrons as we speak

MMRCA was first floated as a NEED in 2001.

by 2008 IT became URGENT as the MIGS started fall out of the skies.

THIS IS BECOMING A CIRCUS NOW with more delays expected to push decision the 2nd half of 2013

I want to ask all Indians should we scrap the MMRCA and look for a interim CHEAP SOLUTION.

The PAF did this very successfully with mirages 3 & 5 IN THE 1970s

surely IAF can do with mirage2000

STICK TO SU30MKI

AND GET lca moving FAST



Mirage 2000 is nowhere the Rafale, and the LCA is crap.

If that happens, I will simply accept that Indians don't care about economic upliftment of their people & spends madly for their regional wet dreams, living up to its reputation as a regional aggressive destabilizing hegemon. :)

We spend enough on the economy. Our defense budget is less than 3%, now piss off if you cant add something useful troller.
 
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This deal MUST go through, Rafale is better than Typhoon.

The Rafale is the perhaps best 4th gen fighter operational.
The French wont be stupid enough to risk a +15 billion USD deal for the Rafale to danger more deals like the 10 billion submarine deal.
 
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The Rafale is the perhaps best 4th gen fighter operational.
The French wont be stupid enough to risk a +15 billion USD deal for the Rafale to danger more deals like the 10 billion submarine deal.

Dassault വലിയവന്* ആകാം എന്ന് കരുതി HAL ചെറിയവന്* ആവുനത്തില്* അര്*ത്ഥമിലാ _PandiT
 
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Mirage 2000 is nowhere the Rafale, and the LCA is crap.

LCA even in its present form is better than half the aircrafts in IAF's inventory. Nowhere near a rafale in capabilities, but still better than most of the IAF's or PAF's planes. It does have a quad redundant, fully digital fly-by-wire system, and a cockpit that is a pilot's delight. As a point defence or light fighter, it is right up there with any modern aircraft. But the IAF also needs other capabilities, hence the need for an M-MRCA.

If the French are playing hardball here, I would say cancel the expensive deal, and go for a direct purchase of Super Hornet international, with all the bells and whistles - including the new silent features, cutting edge AESA and EDE/EPE engine. Forget about ToT, but simply do the final assembly (from completely knocked down kits) at HAL. This will save a lot of money - for one thing, the F-18 is a lot cheaper than EF or Rafale, and for another, we won't be paying for ToT. With Boeing's mindnumbingly huge production capabilities, we will get all the 126 (or 189) fighters in five years' time. The IAF's pressing need is for numbers, not technology - as it is, we will have two aircrafts (super MKI and these) that are technologically superior to anything in Asia.

We have already made this mistake of conflating numbers and technology - first it was with the LCA. The IAF saw a future need to replace huge numbers of mig 21s, and informed the GoI. The GoI also saw in it an opportunity to develop our aviation industry from scratch to fourth gen standards. As a result, now we don't have the LCA in our arsenal yet. Similarly, the IAF wanted to buy 126 mirage 2000-5 in the year 2001. Then somebody decided that we should also get cutting edge technology transferred from Europe to India with the same purchase, completely ignoring the IAF's need for numbers. And now, a decade later, we still haven't finalized a contract to get the damn planes.

Nobody would want to transfer all their technology just because we throw money at them. So let us use a lot less money to just buy the end product, and use the rest of the allocated money to do our own R&D, and produce our own stuff in future. It is the more difficult route, but it may be the only possible route. Dassault did not get to where it is today by buying technology for money. NEither did boeing or LM or anybody else.

If we go for a direct buy of the SH, the munitions pakage will also come a lot cheaper. We will be saving at least 5 billion dollars, which can be pumped into the LCA and AMCA programs. Once we are done with the R&D of the LCA Mk2, we will be in a position to start serious work on the AMCA - and then we will actually be on par with some of the best in the world. It will take 15 years of hard work, but ultimately that is what will benefit us, not an expensive "ToT" from Dassault.
 
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LCA even in its present form is better than half the aircrafts in IAF's inventory. Nowhere near a rafale in capabilities, but still better than most of the IAF's or PAF's planes. It does have a quad redundant, fully digital fly-by-wire system, and a cockpit that is a pilot's delight. As a point defence or light fighter, it is right up there with any modern aircraft. But the IAF also needs other capabilities, hence the need for an M-MRCA.

If the French are playing hardball here, I would say cancel the expensive deal, and go for a direct purchase of Super Hornet international, with all the bells and whistles - including the new silent features, cutting edge AESA and EDE/EPE engine. Forget about ToT, but simply do the final assembly (from completely knocked down kits) at HAL. This will save a lot of money - for one thing, the F-18 is a lot cheaper than EF or Rafale, and for another, we won't be paying for ToT. With Boeing's mindnumbingly huge production capabilities, we will get all the 126 (or 189) fighters in five years' time. The IAF's pressing need is for numbers, not technology - as it is, we will have two aircrafts (super MKI and these) that are technologically superior to anything in Asia.

We have already made this mistake of conflating numbers and technology - first it was with the LCA. The IAF saw a future need to replace huge numbers of mig 21s, and informed the GoI. The GoI also saw in it an opportunity to develop our aviation industry from scratch to fourth gen standards. As a result, now we don't have the LCA in our arsenal yet. Similarly, the IAF wanted to buy 126 mirage 2000-5 in the year 2001. Then somebody decided that we should also get cutting edge technology transferred from Europe to India with the same purchase, completely ignoring the IAF's need for numbers. And now, a decade later, we still haven't finalized a contract to get the damn planes.

Nobody would want to transfer all their technology just because we throw money at them. So let us use a lot less money to just buy the end product, and use the rest of the allocated money to do our own R&D, and produce our own stuff in future. It is the more difficult route, but it may be the only possible route. Dassault did not get to where it is today by buying technology for money. NEither did boeing or LM or anybody else.

If we go for a direct buy of the SH, the munitions pakage will also come a lot cheaper. We will be saving at least 5 billion dollars, which can be pumped into the LCA and AMCA programs. Once we are done with the R&D of the LCA Mk2, we will be in a position to start serious work on the AMCA - and then we will actually be on par with some of the best in the world. It will take 15 years of hard work, but ultimately that is what will benefit us, not an expensive "ToT" from Dassault.

Completely Disagree with you.

French are not playing hardball, they are just doing what any other nation would have done for the amount of money ($20 billion) & no. of years involved (40 years in IAF) - Give & Take, isn't this is how nations negotiate?? Does throwing enough money means French does not have any right to even put up there stand??

You are asking to go for Super Hornets in fact IAF will not even go for F-22s IF the Americans offer it, reason is obvious, with too much strings attached, US is not even ready to give us the TOT of ATGMs forget about Jets & the biggest worry, in case of American sanctions in a war scenario, a major portion (126+ jets) will become good for nothing. They put up a condition of "not to be used in war" for second hand INS Jalashwa, what do u think there wish-list will be for a sophisticated jets like SH??

Yes, nos. are of importance to the IAF but that doesn't mean that IAF will seriously endanger the security of the nation just b'coz we are getting these jets 2-3 years in advance.

IAF wants both Nos. as well as tech. since we cannot remain dependent on foreign nations for our every military needs forever. LCA was delayed - Yes, but it has given us immense expertise in making an advance fighter of 4+ gen. This is a capability not every nation enjoys, what the deal with the French will do is that with experience in LCA & TOT from Rafale, it will make our AMCA project as smooth an affair as it can be.

+ When u are bringing 126 mirage-2000-5 deal, u are forgetting that cancellation of the same was one of the best decisions, no way the cancellation was done by GOI alone but IAF would have been very much in sync with the decision. Whatever plane we buy, keep in mind that we have to operate them for next 40 years, since mirage-2000s were first flown in end 1970s & would have been at best good for next 15-20 years max. (even with upgrades), Is it surprising that Dassault themselves closed there production lines & the French AF was going for Rafale instead??
 
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Even the cancellation of MMRCA deal will not affect any other deals with France.

On the worst case scenario, we can get some Mirage2000from second hand market.

Between, when will the 2014 election commission norms come into effect?
 
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Completely Disagree with you.

French are not playing hardball, they are just doing what any other nation would have done for the amount of money ($20 billion) & no. of years involved (40 years in IAF) - Give & Take, isn't this is how nations negotiate?? Does throwing enough money means French does not have any right to even put up there stand??

You are asking to go for Super Hornets in fact IAF will not even go for F-22s IF the Americans offer it, reason is obvious, with too much strings attached, US is not even ready to give us the TOT of ATGMs forget about Jets & the biggest worry, in case of American sanctions in a war scenario, a major portion (126+ jets) will become good for nothing. They put up a condition of "not to be used in war" for second hand INS Jalashwa, what do u think there wish-list will be for a sophisticated jets like SH??

Yes, nos. are of importance to the IAF but that doesn't mean that IAF will seriously endanger the security of the nation just b'coz we are getting these jets 2-3 years in advance.

IAF wants both Nos. as well as tech. since we cannot remain dependent on foreign nations for our every military needs forever. LCA was delayed - Yes, but it has given us immense expertise in making an advance fighter of 4+ gen. This is a capability not every nation enjoys, what the deal with the French will do is that with experience in LCA & TOT from Rafale, it will make our AMCA project as smooth an affair as it can be.

+ When u are bringing 126 mirage-2000-5 deal, u are forgetting that cancellation of the same was one of the best decisions, no way the cancellation was done by GOI alone but IAF would have been very much in sync with the decision. Whatever plane we buy, keep in mind that we have to operate them for next 40 years, since mirage-2000s were first flown in end 1970s & would have been at best good for next 15-20 years max. (even with upgrades), Is it surprising that Dassault themselves closed there production lines & the French AF was going for Rafale instead??

First of all, India is still not capable of absorbing technology on Rafale. Keep in mind that this is a 4th generation plane and not that advanced as compare to an F-22 (both were developed and inducted at about the same time). But the domestic technical capability of India is much further behind. When India struggle to create LCA, it should focus on pure research such as material and electronics research. On the other hand, buy the most advance weapons without TOT, which would decrease the cost of weapon purchase tremendously. This would eventually allow India to build up the technology and more importantly, the engineers themselves, while satisfy the needs of military. So go for the best weapons out there without TOT. Spend the money on building up engineers and learn the technology from ground up as there are no short cuts to knowledge.
 
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Even the cancellation of MMRCA deal will not affect any other deals with France.

On the worst case scenario, we can get some Mirage2000from second hand market.

Between, when will the 2014 election commission norms come into effect?

First of all, I request not to SPECULATE so much as the MMRCA deal is anything but cancelled.

Second, the EC modal code of conduct guidelines comes into effect from the day the election schedule is announced till the day results are declared:

The Model Code of Conduct is enforced from the date of announcement of election schedule by the Election Commission and is operational till the process of elections are completed.

http://eci.nic.in/eci_main/model_code_conduct.pdf

this can mean 3-4 months in advance of may-2014 elections.
 
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MMRCA is the correct project to bring in more private Indian defence players into the fold instead of keeping HAL as the focal integrator.

Experience gained in this project can also help more private participation in the AMCA project.

When will the GoI actually encourage private players participation on mega projects ? Give the private players a chance to play a bigger role, they might very much do a better job than HAL.

First of all, the recent issues was not about bringing in private companies instead of HAL, but who decides about which privat companies will be included in the project and who will have the responsibility of the project as a whole, HAL or Dassault?
From this point it's obvious that we MUST have HAL in control and not a foreign company, just like WE have to decide which private companies will be involved, because if the foreign companies will decide it, they also will decide which techs will be transfered.
HAL is Indias no 1 company for fighter developments, with private companies assisting them, that's why it's important to improve HAL in first place too. The only problem is, that we have only HAL and that they have to do too much, so we need to include private companies to take "certain" parts of the production away from them, but not the whole project.


Pacifying French with Airbus deal could be a sign of things to come.

The whole picture might be out in open in weeks to come.

Of course there is issue with Dassault.

Prices quoted previously are expected to increase considerably when real negotiations takes place.

A twist cant be ruled ouT, though would be unfortunate for enthusiasts.


The issue might be the same for various crucial deals, costs and ammount of critical ToT!

Shakti engine re-design for HALs LUH - reportedly the French offer was too expensive and that's why MoD wants to start a competition

Kaveri - Snecma engine - reportedly issues about ToT and costs, now MoD wants to start a competition

Maitri SAM development - reportedly the French offer was too expensive, which is why the deal is delayed so far

Same most likely is the case for LUH competition and the Fennec as the possible frontrunner.


These are normal buisiness issues, since both sides want to get the best deal for their side. The fact however remains, that in all these deals (just like the A330MRTT deal), the French offers are the best choices, be it wrt the high capability, or the industrial advantages. When we finally get beyond our bureaucratic hurdles, it's just a matter of negotiations and I'm sure that we will see a final decision as officially stated within this fiscal year, most likely when the French President will arrive in India.
 
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All I am waiting for is the ToT amount that India will get. Fighter capabilities are if somewhat up or down, it wont make much difference as in that case also we will have the best as compared to neighbours. Now lets see if we will get the tech for engine or Aesa or both. Hope to hear something in a couple of months.
 
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indians are asking too much. engine crystal blade technology is a result of long time hard work research, many trials and errors and billion of dollars. it's the crown jewel in aerospace industry. noboy gonna give you that. this is money can't buy tech. it's worth more than your $20 bn..
the reason india is looking for new partners to help develop the kaverie engine is also because the french reluctant to transfer technology of the hot section. they need to stop asking for that. the best you can get from them or anyone related to engine are how to make low pressure turbine blades, nuts and bolts.. lol
 
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