MMRCA Negotiations Stalled Over Dassault-HAL Tussle: Report

[JanjaWeed]

Sounds like these guys can't even organise a pissup in a brewery. Won't be surprised if the tussle is more to do with the share of spoils between netas & babus.

 

[neehar]

i think stalled is a bit too much better word is delayed..a deal of this big size takes time to reach a consensus nobady wans to loose this deal india wants the planes and they want the money..it'll settle down at an amicable solution so chill guys..

 

[IND151]

Maybe Dassault worries India will reverse engineer Rafale by HAL.

Like what China did to Su27 assembly line. Private company is a much safer and controllable partner for Dassault.

They want private company, according to some sources, as it can be bribed to not ask for ToT(off coarse minimum ToT will happen to ensure smooth production from that company)

Maybe Dassault worries India will reverse engineer Rafale by HAL.

we wont

 

[Windjammer]

Dassault has previously expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet. A HAL programme to manufacture advanced jet trainers is running years behind schedule.

India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.
The defence deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France with the remainder to be produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.
The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi.
The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.
The defence ministry "completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft," the newspaper reported, citing sources.
Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers which are a crucial part of the deal.
The Rafale beat off stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the US and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its ageing fleet.
Its main rival, the Eurofighter made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.
A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report when contacted by AFP.
The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.
India's air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^that's right

There is news that France doesn't agree with a condition wrt to ToT and wants Reliance Aerospace Ltd instead of HAL to build/assemble the jets in India
@sancho @Capt.Popeye> please tell me whether I am right or not

Actually this hurdle was addressed a few months back with the GoI/MoD sticking to HAL being the primary contractor in this project and Dassualt had to accept this.

 

[Screambowl]

deal will surely happen but it will take time. may be 2-3 years delay can be expected

 

[Abingdonboy]

I spoke to a Dassualt guy not long back (before this news was out) and he said that on a broad level Dassualt were only really concerned that HAL has so much on its plate- 100s of LCH, 100s of ALH, 100s of ALH WSI, 100s of LCA, 100s of MKI (not to mention soon SUPER SU-30MKI), scores of DO-228, upgrades of existing a/c etc etc and for any company to deal with all these complex and advanced projects at different levels of maturity (ie LCH,LCA and ALH-WSI are still in the testing phase) is just an almost unprecedented mountain of work that no other single aviation entity on the planet has ever undertaken. Dassualt are really uneasy all this and the way the MMRCA deal will work, if HAL has issues down the line in producing the set number of Rafales the MoD/IAF has stipulated per annum then there is the very real risk of fines and penalties imposed on DASSUALT and naturally they want to avoid this at all costs.


Having said that, this particular issue has been resolved as, against Dassualt's instance, the MoD has stood firm and categorically stated HAL will be the primary contractor.


Additionally this isn't the first stall the Dassualt-MoD negotiaros have faced, there have been issues with the above, issues with cost, issues with the sub-contractors, issues with the split of Cs and Bs delivered to the IAF etc etc and ALL have thus far been resolved within weeks/days.


This is just a new hurdle that I'm very sure will be sorted out in the next few days/weeks, this isn't some impossible impasse and Dassualt aren't going to throw away 10s of Billions of USD neither are the IAF going to sit back and let the MoD screw this deal up. Both sides are fully aware of the pressing need for this deal and both sides are desperate so no doubt there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes and soon there will be a compromise/agreement and the negotiations move on again.



No one said it was going to be easy................

deal will surely happen but it will take time. may be 2-3 years delay can be expected

Good joke!





























NOT.

 

[lilaspr]

its a tussle so that "THE FAMILY" gets its share. HAHA

 

[selvan33]

Defence Ministry, Dassault to hold talks on aircraft deal

Amid fears of delay in the 126 combat aircraft deal, Defence Ministry and French Dassault Rafale will hold talks today to iron out differences between them over the responsibilities to be given to the state-run HAL in the contract estimated to be worth $15 billion.

Soon after the Rafale fighter jet was shortlisted by the IAF in 2012, its maker Dassault Aviation has been raising questions about the capabilities and the role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in the contract for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

The two sides are scheduled to meet today as part of contract negotiations where they will discuss all the problems and issues faced in the deal, sources told PTI here.

Some of the issues between the two sides include Dassault’s demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India by the HAL.

The Defence Ministry is not in agreement with this demand for two separate contracts and has also conveyed this to the French firm, they said.

The Defence Ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault’s demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.

Recently, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier had stated that HAL would be its main partner in the contract and there was no confusion on the issue.

Dassault has also signed an MoU with the Reliance Industries Limited and wants to give a bigger role to it in the production phase in India is areas such as supply chain and project management.

Rafale had edged out five other aircraft including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter to bag the contract.

 

[OrionHunter]

WTF? Why wasn't all this sorted out before signing the contract? They've had almost half a decade to study it and read the small print.

Oh God Almighty! Why are we blessed with such idiots at the helm?

 

[neehar]

I spoke to a Dassualt guy not long back (before this news was out) and he said that on a broad level Dassualt were only really concerned that HAL has so much on its plate- 100s of LCH, 100s of ALH, 100s of ALH WSI, 100s of LCA, 100s of MKI (not to mention soon SUPER SU-30MKI), scores of DO-228, upgrades of existing a/c etc etc and for any company to deal with all these complex and advanced projects at different levels of maturity (ie LCH,LCA and ALH-WSI are still in the testing phase) is just an almost unprecedented mountain of work that no other single aviation entity on the planet has ever undertaken. Dassualt are really uneasy all this and the way the MMRCA deal will work, if HAL has issues down the line in producing the set number of Rafales the MoD/IAF has stipulated per annum then there is the very real risk of fines and penalties imposed on DASSUALT and naturally they want to avoid this at all costs.


Having said that, this particular issue has been resolved as, against Dassualt's instance, the MoD has stood firm and categorically stated HAL will be the primary contractor.


Additionally this isn't the first stall the Dassualt-MoD negotiaros have faced, there have been issues with the above, issues with cost, issues with the sub-contractors, issues with the split of Cs and Bs delivered to the IAF etc etc and ALL have thus far been resolved within weeks/days.


This is just a new hurdle that I'm very sure will be sorted out in the next few days/weeks, this isn't some impossible impasse and Dassualt aren't going to throw away 10s of Billions of USD neither are the IAF going to sit back and let the MoD screw this deal up. Both sides are fully aware of the pressing need for this deal and both sides are desperate so no doubt there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes and soon there will be a compromise/agreement and the negotiations move on again.



No one said it was going to be easy................



Good joke!

NOT.

honestly the demands of dassault seemed to be justified to me.they cannot hold responsibility for the functioning of some other agency.especially given its work load and track record..

 

[CZAR]

I am a little ignorant about these issues. I have a doubt. HAL is nowhere close to being a premier defence aviation company.

So why can't India allow Dassault to manufacture the planes, and take them off the assembly line in a flyaway condition? That ways the delays and cost-overruns of HAL can be avoided, Dassault certainly has better credentials and plus in cases of any untoward incidents with the planes, Dassault could be made accountable?

 

[IND151]

I spoke to a Dassualt guy not long back (before this news was out) and he said that on a broad level Dassualt were only really concerned that HAL has so much on its plate- 100s of LCH, 100s of ALH, 100s of ALH WSI, 100s of LCA, 100s of MKI (not to mention soon SUPER SU-30MKI), scores of DO-228, upgrades of existing a/c etc etc and for any company to deal with all these complex and advanced projects at different levels of maturity (ie LCH,LCA and ALH-WSI are still in the testing phase) is just an almost unprecedented mountain of work that no other single aviation entity on the planet has ever undertaken. Dassualt are really uneasy all this and the way the MMRCA deal will work, if HAL has issues down the line in producing the set number of Rafales the MoD/IAF has stipulated per annum then there is the very real risk of fines and penalties imposed on DASSUALT and naturally they want to avoid this at all costs.


Having said that, this particular issue has been resolved as, against Dassualt's instance, the MoD has stood firm and categorically stated HAL will be the primary contractor.


Additionally this isn't the first stall the Dassualt-MoD negotiaros have faced, there have been issues with the above, issues with cost, issues with the sub-contractors, issues with the split of Cs and Bs delivered to the IAF etc etc and ALL have thus far been resolved within weeks/days.


This is just a new hurdle that I'm very sure will be sorted out in the next few days/weeks, this isn't some impossible impasse and Dassualt aren't going to throw away 10s of Billions of USD neither are the IAF going to sit back and let the MoD screw this deal up. Both sides are fully aware of the pressing need for this deal and both sides are desperate so no doubt there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes and soon there will be a compromise/agreement and the negotiations move on again.



No one said it was going to be easy................



Good joke!





























NOT.

In that case, HAL's production capacity should be increased with setting up new plants and recruiting more workforce

MOD should have set up extra facilities 2-3 years ago, couldn't they foresee it?

 

[SpArK]

Do we have any Marine de french to hold as ransom to negotiate ?

 

[MilSpec]

honestly the demands of dassault seemed to be justified to me.they cannot hold responsibility for the functioning of some other agency.especially given its work load and track record..

The agency concerned here is responsible for running production lines for SU30MKI, AJT, ALH Dhruv, and overhauling Mig 27M, Jaguar, up-gradation of Mig 27M to DareIII and Jags to DARIN II in addition to development of IJT, LCH, LCA and LCA mk2.
it also needs to gear up for additional product lines for Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 upgrade program, integration of drdo awacs in conjunction with Rafale production lines!

Where most of the aviation companies around the world work with not more than two or three products HAL is expected to support more than 10-12 product lines.