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MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded (a must read)

DrSomnath999

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The founders of our Constitution gave us the freedom of speech, but they possibly didn’t realise that there would be something called a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the IAF that would be so set upon by some armchair critics as to blur the fine line between free speech and misinformation. Bharat Karnad’s “Why Rafale is a Big Mistake” (TNIE, July 25) does just that, besides being full of innuendos and disinformation. To be sure, this writer is just an academic now but one who spent the better part of three decades smelling burnt aviation turbine fuel on the flight line, including flight testing aircraft, and in a senior position pushing tri-service procurement proposals in HQ Integrated Defence Staff.

It would be good to give the readers of this newspaper a low-down on how the MMRCA requirement came about. The IAF, around the turn of the century, after carrying out a threat assessment found the need for a capability to be acquired to fill a void in its combat fleet to address the conflict spectrum that India was likely to face. Accordingly, a requirement for 126 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft (improved version of Mirage 2000) was projected to the government in 2000. The Mirages had performed very creditably in the Kargil conflict and since a drawdown in fleet strength was looming due to obsolescence of the MiG-21s and ground attack fleet, it was felt that the improved version of the Mirage would fit in as a replacement. But post-Kargil, the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) came into vogue in 2002 and a multi-vendor process (as mandated by the DPP) commenced with revised Qualitative Requirements (QRs). The Request for Proposal for the almost $10.5 billion project was sent in 2007 to all six aircraft manufacturers who make this class of aircraft, other than China, who then applied in the mandated two-bid format, with each vendor giving a technical bid and a commercial bid at the same time; it is important to understand this as it implies that the price bid of a company got fixed in dollar/Euro terms at that point. As per the DPP, initially only the technical bids are opened and the equipment put through an evaluation process which includes a field evaluation trial. This technical evaluation throws up vendors who meet the QRs that had been projected and only their commercial bids are opened and assessed to select the winner.

The MMRCA evaluation followed the DPP to the ‘t’ with not a whiff of any controversy, and after very rigorous ground and flight evaluations, two vendors qualified. The evaluation of their commercial bids saw the selection of the French Rafale in 2011. An attempt is now being made to make a textbook evaluation and selection process mired in controversy of performance criteria (QRs), costs, and surprisingly a corruption allegation.

That the cost of the project in rupee terms (and not dollar value) would increase is a no-brainer as more than three years have elapsed in decision-making and the rupee value has depreciated. Any further delay will jack it up further but that would have happened with whichever aircraft had met the criteria. What Karnad is now questioning is the force composition of the IAF arrived at by professional planners and, without being an air power expert himself, suggesting a new mix of “..Tejas Mk I for short range air defence, Tejas MkII as MMRCA and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth generation fighter”. This is a perfect example of the ignorant trying to drive defence force structuring as the yet-to-be inducted Tejas Mk I is unsuitable for IAF operational requirements (and hence would limited to only two squadrons) and Tejas Mk II would have less than one-third the flight range and armament capability of the MMRCA and just qualify to be a MiG 21 replacement. Why the use of future tense? Because Tejas Mk II is still on DRDO’s drawing board and would NOT enter squadron service before 2020-22, just like the fifth generation fighter (which would be 2025 or later). But the requirement is literally now, as the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence (15th Lok Sabha) itself despairingly noted that the IAF strength was down to 34 squadrons (instead of the sanctioned 42) and reducing further, thus requiring new timely acquisitions.

It is most unprofessional to link defence acquisitions of one country with the threat perception of another as Karnad has done and it is downright spiteful for doubting the competence of test pilots and test engineers of the IAF by saying that the Brazilians had doubts about Rafale’s radar and its head-up display. Do Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, Singapore and Morocco (cited by Karnad as having rejected the Rafale) have two nuclear armed nations as adversaries? Have these nations ever gone to war with their neighbours in the past six decades? Costs, albeit important, don’t decide acquisitions; it is the capability one desires that is the driving factor and it’s our misfortune that HAL has not delivered this to the nation. The IAF just looks at getting the right product to safeguard the national skies, as it is its duty to do so. The IAF is accountable to the nation if it does not perform; pray, what is the responsibility attached to Karnad for his alternative force composition suggestion for the IAF?

The visit of the French foreign minister and his supposed canvassing for the Rafale, that Karnad finds fault with, is something that any politician would do for his country; hopefully, there would come a day when the Indian foreign minister would do the same for a HAL-produced aircraft, Inshallah! Till then, let the professionals do their job of recommending what is good for the defence of the nation. Please trust someone. In the case of the IAF, it is a crack team of test pilots and test engineers on whom the country has spent a fortune to train. Let armchair critics not derail a capability provider that successive IAF chiefs have urged the government to procure. This trend to doubt recommendations of service chiefs is dangerous and is conspicuous by the surety of it being raised each time a big-ticket item of any of the three services is close to fruition. Disagreements based on professionally sound arguments are always welcome—but they come with a caveat in matters of national security. The naysayers must be held responsible, too. It is only right that readers of this newspaper are made wise accordingly.

The writer, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a distinguished fellow at Centre for Air Power Studies.

MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded -The New Indian Express

SPOT ON in this regard


"This trend to doubt recommendations of service chiefs is dangerous and is conspicuous by the surety of it being raised each time a big-ticket item of any of the three services is close to fruition. ""

THIS PART IS REALLY DANGEROUS & becoz tommorow this thing can also happen with Indian navy & Indian army also
 
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The only thing i really liked about this article

If we people gonna beleive what these arm chair generals are saying rather than beleiving what our armed forces are claiming
then MAY GOD SAVE OUR LAND:lol:


The government should prohibit such kind of freedom of speech & expression

tommorow similiar kind of scenario would happen when Indian army buys tanks/ howtizers

indian navy buys submarines & fighter aircraft for aircraft carriers.

PLZ stop this nonsense if we dont beleive the words of our own armed forces the only organiztion saving our integrity

& unity of our nation then whose words shall we beleive the Corrupt politicians :lol:


CHEERS
 
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The only thing i really liked about this article

If we people gonna beleive what these arm chair generals are saying rather than beleiving what our armed forces are claiming
then MAY GOD SAVE OUR LAND:lol:


The government should prohibit such kind of freedom of speech & expression

tommorow similiar kind of scenario would happen when Indian army buys tanks/ howtizers

indian navy buys submarines & fighter aircraft for aircraft carriers.

PLZ stop this nonsense we dont beleive the words of our own armed forces the only organiztion saving our integrity

& unity of our nation then whose words shall we beleive the Corrupt politicians :lol:


CHEERS
The sad thing is this already happens- and it is clear in many cases these arm chair generals are promoting someone else's interests and not India's. The level of scrutiny the armed forces come under is not present in the media- they are free to chuck all the muck they like and the Indian military is sadly too proud/oblivious to respond give a rebuttal and nip these stories in the bud at source. Before you know it these allegations get out of control and are quickly touted as fact by the wider ignorant media.
 
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Rafale's superiority over typhoon In indian MMRCA evaluation

Rafale_s_superiority_over_typhoon_In_indian_MMRC.jpg


The Rafale had also scored well in the technical evaluation for the MMRCA competition and its EW capability, sensor fusion and ability to attack more than one ground target in an attack run in particular. Typhoon will need to reach SRP 12 before it can attack multiple ground targets. SRP 10 was due in 2011 and SRP 12 in 2012 but to my knowledge no production aircraft have yet received SRP 10.

Eurofighter Typhoon Guide « Articles « Fast Air Photography
 
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Beat me to it bro! Was seconds away from posting this myself.


@sancho @Koovie @Dillinger @Bang Galore @Echo_419 @kaykay



These ignorant and or paid journos are causing untold damage in India, it's boarding on treason.

Well paid journos can sure cause damage,but when a administration has made uo it's mind no one can stop it from taking the right steps for the nation.The new govt has given Defense a priority along with the economy so expect a decision on Rafael soon
 
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Dr Saheb i agree with all your points but the thing that is not discussed is timing here

FGFA will come to IAF at the end of this decade and even if the rafale deal is signed as it is even then it will come at the end of 2018 at best and by that time both china and pakistan wil be having a large number of 4++ gen AESA equipped fighters

+ even if rafale deal is signed there is a whole lot of issues regarding setting up a toatlli new training , maintainence & support infra for rafale and aslo a new fighting doctrine while we save at least two years and amlost 10 billiondolars if we go for additional AESA equipped flankers (super sukois or su 35s)

so tell me what does rafale gives what latest gen of super flankers dont offer

Thanks
 
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Pakfa can be a reality for india in 2017-18 only if we agree to it with older engines..........

Rest of the points are good,,,betting on tejas is stupid thing to do as even mk1 has yet to pass foc with more than 1700 parameters yet to be covered.

We simply have no choice now,,,,had we decided about getting something 3 years back then we could have made a case for high costs but not now.Now we need this immediately

Dr Saheb i agree with all your points but the thing that is not discussed is timing here

FGFA will come to IAF at the end of this decade and even if the rafale deal is signed as it is even then it will come at the end of 2018 at best and by that time both china and pakistan wil be having a large number of 4++ gen AESA equipped fighters

+ even if rafale deal is signed there is a whole lot of issues regarding setting up a toatlli new training , maintainence & support infra for rafale and aslo a new fighting doctrine while we save at least two years and amlost 10 billiondolars if we go for additional AESA equipped flankers (super sukois or su 35s)

so tell me what does rafale gives what latest gen of super flankers dont offer

Thanks

1)Flankers as of yet don't have an operational aesa while rafale has been with it since 2012
2)Ew suite of rafale is far superior than flankers,,,their irst is better,,,their pods are better
3)Engines have better life at about 6000 hours while best russian engine for su-35s,,,product 117s is just 4000 hours with our own shitty al-31f for mki having just 2000 hours and no fadec.

4)The weapons package with meteor is very attractive
 
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Rafale is the need of hour. period. anybody saying about it's price should know that even latest batch of mkis are costing us around 100 million a piece
 
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Beat me to it bro! Was seconds away from posting this myself.


@sancho @Koovie @Dillinger @Bang Galore @Echo_419 @kaykay



These ignorant and or paid journos are causing untold damage in India, it's boarding on treason
.


WRT the underlined part: we do not need to go "over the top" in response.
I will also draw your attention to the Stratpost-Vayu discussions on the MMRCA acquisition which appeared as the subject of another thread, and then the comments of some of us there.
Actually, going back to the above-mentioned discussions; it is clear from some of the panelists that the acquisition plan took on a larger dimension than just the replacement of some legacy aircraft like the MiG-21/27 (and later even the Jaguars) which was originally envisaged. And understandably so. The reasons being firstly a larger than anticipated passage of time, progressive obsolesence in that period, a sudden impetus in the air-capabilities of one projected adversary and most of all a quantum leap in capability of aircraft that became available to the IAF, instead of the usual East-Bloc aircraft that the IAF had to be content with uptill then. Apart from the steady slippages in the LCA project.

Naturally the IAF grabbed that opportunity to redefine their ASQRs. Nobody can find fault with that. Just as it is an incontrovertible fact, that the IAF is also responsible to some extent for what went wrong in the LCA project. At the very least by keeping it at "arms-length" and at the worst; by being unable or unwilling to provide any meaningful inputs when they were needed most. That is precisely the part that was alluded to by Adm.Arun Prakash as part of the panel discussions. And he was on "sure ground" because the IN in contrast has had active participation in its large "Capital Acquisition" projects. Ironically (and incredibly) the last time(s) that the IAF had participated actively in developmental projects like the Gnat (arguably India's first LCA) and the HF-24 Marut; the great measure of success was only achieved because of active IAF participation!

Then why did the IAF choose to overlook or even forget that part of its own History? That is an uncomfortable question that the IAF will need to confront at some time or the other.

About the criteria and the selection procedure adopted for the MMRCA; it can with some justification, be described as nearly faultless. Just as the final choice can even be described as worthy. So any carping by "Armchair Aviators" can just be "given the finger"!
That does not eliminate justifiable questions. For example; how clearly defined (and understood) is the concept of Life Cycle Costs (LCC). But even that is not a fit ground to junk either the choice or the program. The fact is that the indenting agencies; for the first time ever, using that as a parameter. and with very good reasons to do so.
The other (justifiable) question is that regarding the cost escalation. But that is even less of a reason to scrap either the choice or the program.

In sum; Bharat Karnad does'nt even know which orifice he is/was spouting from while AM Manmohan Bahadur justifiably heaps scorn upon him.
 
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Pakfa can be a reality for india in 2017-18 only if we agree to it with older engines..........

Rest of the points are good,,,betting on tejas is stupid thing to do as even mk1 has yet to pass foc with more than 1700 parameters yet to be covered.

We simply have no choice now,,,,had we decided about getting something 3 years back then we could have made a case for high costs but not now.Now we need this immediately



1)Flankers as of yet don't have an operational aesa while rafale has been with it since 2012
2)Ew suite of rafale is far superior than flankers,,,their irst is better,,,their pods are better
3)Engines have better life at about 6000 hours while best russian engine for su-35s,,,product 117s is just 4000 hours with our own shitty al-31f for mki having just 2000 hours and no fadec.

4)The weapons package with meteor is very attractive
and what about timing even if we go for rafale today we will get first squad not less earli than mid 2018 or maybe 2019

and if we need it today there is no way HAL can be trusted to start full production for rafale for at least 4 years if not 5 or maybe more

onli way rafale deal can work for us if india decides to buy at least 2 french build squads (that to on fast time frame basis) but that will onli occur if french reduce the price tag consideraballi and as for so called TOT i guess it will be not more than "screw driver job"

as fro french AESA radar & spectra i guess we can use israeli radar or if things go smoothlli maybe even a japnese one .. who knowsand by that time i guess the new flanker engines will be ready so i think flanker is a good deal

IAF should go for
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 french built rafales
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 super flankers with new engine and AESA (russian or israeli )
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 LCA
 
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and what about timing even if we go for rafale today we will get first squad not less earli than mid 2018 or maybe 2019

and if we need it today there is no way HAL can be trusted to start full production for rafale for at least 4 years if not 5 or maybe more

onli way rafale deal can work for us if india decides to buy at least 2 french build squads (that to on fast time frame basis) but that will onli occur if french reduce the price tag consideraballi and as for so called TOT i guess it will be not more than "screw driver job"

as fro french AESA radar & spectra i guess we can use israeli radar or if things go smoothlli maybe even a japnese one .. who knowsand by that time i guess the new flanker engines will be ready so i think flanker is a good deal

IAF should go for
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 french built rafales
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 super flankers with new engine and AESA (russian or israeli )
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 LCA

Usa has refused to allow israelis to let them sell us em/m 2052 aesa.
Plus mki has huge monstrous rcs
 
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and what about timing even if we go for rafale today we will get first squad not less earli than mid 2018 or maybe 2019

and if we need it today there is no way HAL can be trusted to start full production for rafale for at least 4 years if not 5 or maybe more

onli way rafale deal can work for us if india decides to buy at least 2 french build squads (that to on fast time frame basis) but that will onli occur if french reduce the price tag consideraballi and as for so called TOT i guess it will be not more than "screw driver job"

as fro french AESA radar & spectra i guess we can use israeli radar or if things go smoothlli maybe even a japnese one .. who knowsand by that time i guess the new flanker engines will be ready so i think flanker is a good deal

IAF should go for
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 french built rafales
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 super flankers with new engine and AESA (russian or israeli )
3 squads 18 X 4 = 72 LCA
since super sukhois are still years away and also mkis production facility is busy till 2018-2019 so additional sukhois are not possible before that, hence timeline issue doesn't make sense. Rafale will be available around on same time when super sukhoi will be available
 
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Usa has refused to allow israelis to let them sell us em/m 2052 aesa.
Plus mki has huge monstrous rcs
Now that I true BS when did that happend or you're making it up :mad::mad::mad:give us the authentic source of your claims news you are talking about is old in 2011 all soughted
 
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