Missing persons issue more serious than NRO, says judge

[RAOSaifullah]

ISLAMABAD: The Supreme Court observed on Tuesday that the highly emotive issue of missing persons was posing greater challenges to democracy than any judicial verdict.

“The government should be aware of the consequences of missing person cases which is bigger than the NRO (National Reconciliation Ordinance) for it affects every citizen of the country,” said Justice Mohammad Sair Ali, a member of the three-judge bench hearing the cases of missing persons.

“Even if my son had been picked, I would also be standing outside the court demanding early release of the child,” Justice Sair said.

Justice Javed Iqbal, who is heading the bench, deplored that although the government had stated before the court that it would not defend the NRO, an upheaval had been created after the verdict that upset the entire country.

“Whenever the Supreme Court is about to take any step, it is told by the government that democracy is in great danger. Democracy does not mean that everybody should be above all limits,” Justice Iqbal observed. The basic problem of Balochistan could not be solved unless the issue of missing people was settled, he added.

The court asked Attorney General Anwar Mansoor to contact ministers and secretaries of defence and interior and heads of intelligence agencies to locate missing persons. It decided to hold day-to-day proceedings on the matter after two weeks. The attorney general assured the court that no uncalled for adjournments would be sought by the government in future, but sought eight to 10 weeks’ time.

He said that about 810 institutions were involved in the issue and he would have to meet them individually because all of them were reluctant to share information at joint meetings.

Justice Iqbal said that action would be taken this time against top officials, instead of merely booking petty officials, adding that it would be an exercise in futility if “we start from the bottom by calling officers like inspectors general, section officers or mohrars”.

“This time we have to start from the top by calling ministers and secretaries and the heads of intelligence agencies,” the court said.

Where is the order to pick a person? At least someone must have issued instructions in this regard, Justice Raja Fayyaz said, adding that every institution had some framework and the government should look after the families of missing people.

“People have expectations from the Supreme Court which has rendered more sacrifices than others for the cause of democracy,” Justice Iqbal observed. People expected that their dear ones would return home after the speech made by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, but no one turned up, he added.

“We want to take everybody along in accordance with the law as we know our limitations,” the court said, adding that the Supreme Court was part of the Constitution and not the creator of the Constitution.

When Advocate Hashmat Habib requested the court to summon heads of the Military Intelligence and the Inter-Services Intelligence, Justice Iqbal said that last time when “we tried to summon them we were sent home for almost 16 months”.

Moving scenes were witnessed in the courtroom when Mrs Amina Masood Janjua, chairperson of the Defence of Human Rights who is campaigning for the release of detained persons including her husband Masood Janjua, regretted that there was silence despite the fact that witnesses were ready to help locate her husband.

 

[courageneverdies]

It really is. Most importantly of those belonging to Balochistan.

KIT Out

 

[SSGPA1]

I pray that if these people were actually kidnapped then they are safe and soon are with their families.

All we have are complains from families and politicians and in reply from agencies is that we don't have these people. There is no evidence which can be used in a court of law.

Why can't the cout accept that these people are not under the custody of an agency??

What of these peopel are in Afghanistan or hiding in some mountain?

What proof is there that these folks were actually kidnapped by the agencies?

sab millay huwey hain ... They all create issues to keep people involved so that they don't come out on streets!

I bet you that now everyone will now focus on charging Gen. Musharraf because PM has agreed with NS to finish 17th amend and local bodies are already done with so before people could ask GoP and opposition to do something about inflation, security and power shortage a new fitna will be created to keep people occupied.

 

[Fracker]

Why the hell importance of any issue is a problem in doing justice? Just give verdict for the culprits of NRO, and then give verdict for Missing people, why getting involve in politics? Unless you are scared to give verdict against NRO culprits .

 

[araz]

Why the hell importance of any issue is a problem in doing justice? Just give verdict for the culprits of NRO, and then give verdict for Missing people, why getting involve in politics? Unless you are scared to give verdict against NRO culprits .

Fracker
My friend you must understand one thing . For too long we have been sitting as a nation on side walls of issues hoping for devine inspiration to descend from the heavens to resolve our problems. For the first time people have rightly defended their right to have access to impartial judiciary, and thereby given strength to the institution. The Government has had to back down and restore a judiciary which they did not want to do.
In the case of NRO the supreme court has already delivered its verdict and it is now upto the people and the parlianmnet to force the culprits to resign and clear their names in courts before reentering politics. It is at this stage that the parlianment is failing us and perhaps it needs another push from the masses to get rid of these corrupt officials and scrooges from the system. Now you know as well as I do that these culprits are not going to do it of their own accord. What the Supreme court is indirectly saying is that they have done their bit , it is now upto the government of the time to enforce the rules of the state.
As to the importance of the missing people, the reason the court thinks it is an important issue is that it is the basis of an uprising in baluchistan. Solving these cases will also reassure peoples confidence in the system. Also the act itself is really draconian. Imagine what you would feel like if someone in your family was just picked up by the agencies without any rhyme or reason , never produced in court and never even accused of any crime, just incarcerated without any access to their loved ones. Now I have no sympathy for the criminals within them but people have the right to be presunmed innocent unless proven otherwise. This is a basic human right which has been denied to various people , some may well have died in custody. In the lattewr case it would then become a criminal act . This is why the Supreme court thinks that ithis issue is more important.
I hope you understand now.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

I pray that if these people were actually kidnapped then they are safe and soon are with their families.

All we have are complains from families and politicians and in reply from agencies is that we don't have these people. There is no evidence which can be used in a court of law.

Why can't the cout accept that these people are not under the custody of an agency??

What of these peopel are in Afghanistan or hiding in some mountain?

What proof is there that these folks were actually kidnapped by the agencies?

sab millay huwey hain ... They all create issues to keep people involved so that they don't come out on streets!

I bet you that now everyone will now focus on charging Gen. Musharraf because PM has agreed with NS to finish 17th amend and local bodies are already done with so before people could ask GoP and opposition to do something about inflation, security and power shortage a new fitna will be created to keep people occupied.

SSGPA
In a lot of cases there is proof that these people were taken away by the agencies. There in lies the problem. Believe me contrary to the general belief in some members of this forum about the motives of Supreme court, these cases are genuine and the agencies are hiding facts. I think you must understand that the law should be uniform and constant for all. You cant just have people who are above the law. This is what has led to the anarchaic state that we are in. CJ Chaudhry , from my own sources in the Supreme court circuit is financially very honest and a good man. We have to back him in this quest as it is a just one.
Araz

 

[PakistanAK47]

Our Judiciary is making un expected moves. few days back CJ was saying lets use khwaja sara's for financial recoveries now he is diverting attention towards missing people, and giving full chance to this govt for robing pakistani nation. What the heck is this guy up to...? He releases number of people which againces captured after long time and man power investment just by sayin that we don't have sufficient evidences against them. They went back to their networks and incidents like GHQ attack happens and these people were the major executer of such nasty plans.
Our national evil is Corruption trust me once we get this corruption out o four contry everything will be alright.No one will join the terrorist networks no one will present themselves for sucidial attempts.

CJ should wake up and realize what he is doing.............


God bless Pakistan

 

[BATMAN]

impartial judiciary my foot.... it is a judiciary which is hijacked by few hundred corrupt activists.
Iftikhar ch. was well known for taking bribes and he even used bidding style of price tagging on his judicial decsions but that is history and today he see him self as govt. maker or breaker. I have no doubts that bidding is going on as we speak.

In the case of NRO the supreme court has already delivered its verdict

Verdict my foot..... NRO was expired in Feb. and does not existed.
It is funny to declare some thing illegal which does not exist any more!
If judiciary believed that NRO (presidential order) is illegal because Musharraf fired iftikhar ch. than they should have sentenced it illegal before feb. 2009.
Not to mention he himself is restored as a result of presidential orders.
Aitizaz Ahsan is openly telling the media that Zardari become imune to crimes becuase unfortunately he is president of Pakistan.

Since iftikhar ch. become the cheif judge of Pakistan corruption has increased in judiciary many hundred folds.
PPP openly say that corruption is their right.

 

[BATMAN]

sayin that we don't have sufficient evidences against them.

Whole nation has watched how foreign militants hijacked the lal mosque and killed security, police and general public but this scum bag iftikhar ch. released all the captured foreigners.
Same foreigners went to Sawat and in coperation with Zardari administration fought against Pak army.
US is paying billions just to accomodate black water and why iftikhar ch. should not charge more becuse he alone is reason for the death of many generals in Islamabad and officers in Sawat.
Imagine in UK or US democracies don't mess with the operation of their security agencies. CIA, RAW, MI5 etc. have ful support from their judiciary to kidnap any suspect any moment.

 

[araz]

impartial judiciary my foot.... it is a judiciary which is hijacked by few hundred corrupt activists.
Iftikhar ch. was well known for taking bribes and he even used bidding style of price tagging on his judicial decsions but that is history and today he see him self as govt. maker or breaker. I have no doubts that bidding is going on as we speak.


Verdict my foot..... NRO was expired in Feb. and does not existed.
It is funny to declare some thing illegal which does not exist any more!
If judiciary believed that NRO (presidential order) is illegal because Musharraf fired iftikhar ch. than they should have sentenced it illegal before feb. 2009.
Not to mention he himself is restored as a result of presidential orders.
Aitizaz Ahsan is openly telling the media that Zardari become imune to crimes becuase unfortunately he is president of Pakistan.

Since iftikhar ch. become the cheif judge of Pakistan corruption has increased in judiciary many hundred folds.
PPP openly say that corruption is their right.

batman
Firstly if Iftikhar Cahudhry had been taking bribes then he would never have been removed in the first place. You may remember, Musharraf hand picked him. As i have said, i know a few judges and i know from them that he is not financially corrupt. Also this has never been proven. Believe me , if he had been corrupt, he would never have dared to attack the system. He would have been made mince meat out of for that.
Whether the NRO expired or not, the fact that it has been declared illegal means that people would be forced to answer to their cases eventually. This in its own right is an imporrtant step in Pakistan's judicial history.
Corruption in the juciciary in pakistan is not a new thing. However it has always been rife in the lower courts. However, in the Supreme court, this is not the case to the best of my knowledge. otherwise the politicians would not have been so worried.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

Whole nation has watched how foreign militants hijacked the lal mosque and killed security, police and general public but this scum bag iftikhar ch. released all the captured foreigners.
Same foreigners went to Sawat and in coperation with Zardari administration fought against Pak army.
US is paying billions just to accomodate black water and why iftikhar ch. should not charge more becuse he alone is reason for the death of many generals in Islamabad and officers in Sawat.
Imagine in UK or US democracies don't mess with the operation of their security agencies. CIA, RAW, MI5 etc. have ful support from their judiciary to kidnap any suspect any moment.

Decisions are taken in court based on the evidence presented. if the evidence is not there , no sane man would convict any one. You are now embarking on unsubstantiated rhetoric. What proof do you have as to the statements that you make? i am sorry that some generals have died. However, people in Pakistan unfortunately are dying every day. It is a stark reality that in two cases of attack on the GHQ and on the mosque in Islamabad, there were glaring deficiencies in the security arrangements by the armed forces themselves. Surely you are not going to say that this was CJPs fault as well. The army is at war and needs to be more efficient in securing its own house. in this case your own house was left unguarded.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

batman
Firstly if Iftikhar Cahudhry had been taking bribes then he would never have been removed in the first place.

In his charge sheet he was accused of it. There was an open letter from Naeem Bokhari, which hinted to one case where he issued verdict in court but after taking bribe from other party reversed his verdict on paper.
Funny part is most of the evidence of his corruption were given by MQM.

You may remember, Musharraf hand picked him.

Musharraf was President of Pakistan and iftikhar ch. was judge of supreme court.
irony is that today iftikhar ch. has declared NRO illegal on the basis that he does not recognise Musharraf as President.

As i have said, i know a few judges and i know from them that he is not financially corrupt. Also this has never been proven. Believe me , if he had been corrupt, he would never have dared to attack the system. He would have been made mince meat out of for that.

In this case who is stoping him to clear his position for the charges for which he was fired.
If he was not corrupt than who paid for the activisim he pulled for so long.
I personally went to court in last summer and i saw lawyers openly running biddings for court verdicts, fake domicles etc. i even saw lawyers trying to steel 2 rupees. My old uncle is a lawyer and i personally used to go to visit him for my personal case but i have never seen such a state of low character judiciary, which is breweing under the command of iftikhar ch.
After all he has to compensate all the activist, he may need them again.

Whether the NRO expired or not

It was realy expired and was simply not existent.

the fact that it has been declared illegal means that people would be forced to answer to their cases eventually. This in its own right is an imporrtant step in Pakistan's judicial history.

Yes it remains a fact and recorded history.
BTW.... no one will be forced ot answer. Technically, free judiciary should have issued arrest warrant for all defaulters and should have canceld their ministerships from feb.2009 onwards but after stall in his bidding value he created this media stunt of no effect.
As per Pakistan law automatically the travel abroad of all wanted is prohibited but this time it is opposite.... men are being fired to follow standard judicial procedures.

Corruption in the juciciary in pakistan is not a new thing. However it has always been rife in the lower courts. However, in the Supreme court, this is not the case to the best of my knowledge. otherwise the politicians would not have been so worried.

This is what you think..... politicians are happy that they found iftikhar ch. who is very soon going to legalise all the big fishes once for all a kind of mutual settelment.

 

[qsaark]

Batman,

Using foul and dirty language does not add up any weight to ones argument, instead reveals the bad temperament and shallow personality of that person. If you have any proof against the honorable Chief Justice, and other honorable Justices, post it here; if you do not have any proof (which indeed you dont have) other than 'bazaari bayanaat' of Mr. Bokhari, keep them to yourself and mind your language.

Difference of opinion is one thing, using words such as “impartial judiciary my foot”, “this scum bag iftikhar ch”, “Verdict my foot”, is totally unacceptable on a pubic forum where educated and civilsed folks meet. Gentlemen don’t use this kind of language even in their private meetings.

“Iftikhar ch. was well known for taking bribes”, “corruption has increased in judiciary many hundred folds”, “state of low character judiciary”, “brewing under the command of iftikhar ch”.

Where is the proof? Your foul and 'bazaari' language is the proof?

At least you should have considered the character of the person you have as you ‘avatar’ who never once used kind of the language you are using, while dealing with worst kind of opponents.

I am reporting your language to the Moderators.

 

[araz]

In his charge sheet he was accused of it. There was an open letter from Naeem Bokhari, which hinted to one case where he issued verdict in court but after taking bribe from other party reversed his verdict on paper.
Funny part is most of the evidence of his corruption were given by MQM.

Musharraf was President of Pakistan and iftikhar ch. was judge of supreme court.
irony is that today iftikhar ch. has declared NRO illegal on the basis that he does not recognise Musharraf as President.

In this case who is stoping him to clear his position for the charges for which he was fired.
If he was not corrupt than who paid for the activisim he pulled for so long.
I personally went to court in last summer and i saw lawyers openly running biddings for court verdicts, fake domicles etc. i even saw lawyers trying to steel 2 rupees. My old uncle is a lawyer and i personally used to go to visit him for my personal case but i have never seen such a state of low character judiciary, which is breweing under the command of iftikhar ch.
After all he has to compensate all the activist, he may need them again.

It was realy expired and was simply not existent.


Yes it remains a fact and recorded history.
BTW.... no one will be forced ot answer. Technically, free judiciary should have issued arrest warrant for all defaulters and should have canceld their ministerships from feb.2009 onwards but after stall in his bidding value he created this media stunt of no effect.
As per Pakistan law automatically the travel abroad of all wanted is prohibited but this time it is opposite.... men are being fired to follow standard judicial procedures.

This is what you think..... politicians are happy that they found iftikhar ch. who is very soon going to legalise all the big fishes once for all a kind of mutual settelment.

batman
If you believe that charge sheet , then it is no use talking to you. You know the story behind it!! Incidentally none of the charges were ever proven and the Government of the time was thoroughly disgraced.he was restored to his position. he was proven innocent by a court of law.Now if you have some substantiated evidence against him bring it forward.
Your personal visit to the courts may have been to a lower court which is not the topic of debate here. i have already fully accepted that in lower courts there may be corruption. But you have to say to me in writing that you went to Supreme court and saw judges involved in irregularities for me to believe you. From your explanation, it does not appear to be the case.
Your argument aabout the NRO having expired has been answered and you need to give me a better argument than that to engage me.
Your argument against Musharaf and Chaudhry also is incoherent and illogical. Musharraf was a tyrant and following the ruling of the supreme court , he was technically not the president odf pakistan. This was the r eason for not recognizing him as the president.
Your answer to the fact that no one will be forced to answer is irrelevant. You are assigning blame in the wrong quarter. If you want to you can approach the Supreme Court to file a petition against the corrupt politicians. However, it is upto the parlianmnet to restore order in its ranks and ask its corrupt officials to resign .I ask you what are the politicians doing about it. What are you doing about it?
The last para is pure rhetoric and is unsubstantiated . it doesa not deserve an answer.
My friend you need to really understand the significance of what has happened in pakistan with the restoration of the judiciary. it is without doubt the best thing that has happened to Pakistan and should be acknowledged as such. Please understand the significance and what it means to you as a citizen of a free nation. You now have at least one avenue you can approach and be listened to.
WaSalam
Araz
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

Batman,

Using foul and dirty language does not add up any weight to ones argument, instead reveals the bad temperament and shallow personality of that person. If you have any proof against the honorable Chief Justice, and other honorable Justices, post it here; if you do not have any proof (which indeed you dont have) other than 'bazaari bayanaat' of Mr. Bokhari, keep them to yourself and mind your language.

Difference of opinion is one thing, using words such as “impartial judiciary my foot”, “this scum bag iftikhar ch”, “Verdict my foot”, is totally unacceptable on a pubic forum where educated and civilsed folks meet. Gentlemen don’t use this kind of language even in their private meetings.

“Iftikhar ch. was well known for taking bribes”, “corruption has increased in judiciary many hundred folds”, “state of low character judiciary”, “brewing under the command of iftikhar ch”.

Where is the proof? Your foul and 'bazaari' language is the proof?

At least you should have considered the character of the person you have as you ‘avatar’ who never once used kind of the language you are using, while dealing with worst kind of opponents.

I am reporting your language to the Moderators.

Qsaark
I got this one covered. Batman is like my younger brother. he is just a bit hot headed and fails sometimes to see the other side of the coin. But brother this is what we are here for.
Nice talking to you again after a very long time.
WaSalam
Araz