Misleading reports related to IAF capability and Pakistani media bravado

[IND151]

If you are going to troll, next time I am gonna kick you out

Show same attitude towrads Luca1, Windjammer and rest Anti India trolls too who shamelessly troll in India related threads.

BTW is it Sherlock?

 

[tsinga]

I have read the article. The fact remains that your Government is not a stupid one.It has people who are far more knowledgeable than we are led to believe. You have achieved in 3 billion what you would have blown 20 billion for(I far more stupid idea). The tech is in your hands, it is now upto you what you do with it. This is the way the world goes.
Araz

No the Government as a whole is not stupid. But the last government believed in inaction so as to avoid controversies along with personal biases. There have been very real consequences to their inaction's biases that we are facing now.

That said, with very little money, I agree with the current GoI's step. That of reducing ToT to reduce the per unit price and purchasing 36 planes directly. I can also assure you that 18 additional Rafales will be purchased. The additional option is almost always exercised by GoI.

Now whether or not GoI goes beyond 54 Rafales or not is not certain. I for one, believe that we should not and the focus should move to FGFA.

 

[Windjammer]

If you look at it from the global arms sale prospect, the IAF has simply kicked us out of the EU by hanging on to the contract for as long as they could. he Rafale was never going to be a cost effective platform for IAF, the long term aim was always going to be PAKFA and perhaps upgrades on the M2Ks to make them relevant to the modern era for another decade. What they have done is to ensure that PAF does not get its hands on anything other than the Chinese or US the latter of which may remain sanction prone. So not a bad move after all. As to what happens in the future, he who has money will always talk!!!
Araz

Dude apart from some avionics package for the JF-17s, i doubt there was anything in the European market that we had eyes on, Mirage -2000, EF Typhoon and Rafale were all either offered or tested by PAF and for whatever reasons, financial or otherwise, were dropped, we didn't go for the Grippen sighting the reason that since it has some American gadgets, it's prone to sanctions, the irony is despite being embargoed for a decade, we still perused for the F-16s......and believe me not without reason, some USAF commanders acknowledge and commend the PAF for the package it has selected for the Block-52s. (From the Horse's mouth)

 

[Arsalan]

Zarvan.
If you have a knee jerk movement to every move your adversary makes you will go bankrupt. Learn to live within your means. The JFT does fine for the moment. I have already posted in this regards on another section on why I feel all this jumping about is unnecessary. Look at the time line of Rafale delivery and setup when the deal is not formally signed and then tell me whether the J31 is really that far away.
Araz

Exactly!!!
We have been discussion this on an other thread already and personally i do not think J10 will be a smart move.
Pakistan Eyes T-50 as Trainer Option

In fact, i do not think there will be a move for that anyways. For the time PAF looks good operating F-16 and JF-17 that seem to be on right track of evolution. The Next Step will be a fifth generation. WE wont be inducting these in huge numbers but once that is done only then may be PAF will look to get a few 4.5 generation options to support them (if JF-17 cannot be taken to that level)

 

[Donatello]

Fair enough. Lets wait and see. But it would be a wrong decision by PAF as far as I am concerned.
Araz

J-10 is an excellent aircraft when coming with IRST and AESA, two things that PAF lacks. See, PAF seems to realize that a 250 BVR fighter force (100 F-16s possibly and 150 JF-17s) is too little for the needs of the region. We need 350-400 fighters. A lot of Mirage and F-7 squadrons need replacement, meaning you have 250-300 jets that need to be retired ( currently, the JF-17s have only managed to replace A-5s, which weren't in the Multirole Mix anyway). Now a common discussion on this forum has been that they will not be 1 on 1 replacement because JF-17 brings quality so numbers are not needed. However, think about this, it takes a lot of time and training and logistics to stand up a squadron. If you are not replacing 1 on 1, then it means going from 400 combat jets to 250 would mean that around 6-8 squadrons are now no longer needed. You will have to disband them. What happens to their infrastructure, manpower and above all the ORBAT?
It is not like if we need more in the future we can simply start another squadron. You lose out on skills, training and time. So it makes sense to make it a 1 on 1 replacement as much as possible. And that is where a few squadrons of J-10 can help.

Another issue is that JF-17 carries only 7 hardpoints, with 3 fuel tanks, that leaves only 4 outer pylons for BVR and WVR missiles. J-10 doesn't suffer the same handicap. You can carry more missiles and or strike weapons. J-31 is still 5 years away from any meaningful debate. So if PAF went for J-10s i wouldn't be surprised.

What i mean to say in short is that a 250 BVR force might be superior to the 400 aircraft non BVR force, but then the needs of the region have changed as well. India is not going to stop at replacements, they will eventually go for the 40 squadrons mark in the next 15-20 years. A 400 BVR fighter force guarantees an ample deterrence, and if and when PAF decides to field 5th Gen, we will have some JF-17s and F-16s (read MLU units and Jordanian) retiring as well, so we will have space to absorb J-31 or whatever automatically.

 

[araz]

Dude apart from some avionics package for the JF-17s, i doubt there was anything in the European market that we had eyes on, Mirage -2000, EF Typhoon and Rafale were all either offered or tested by PAF and for whatever reasons, financial or otherwise, were dropped, we didn't go for the Grippen sighting the reason that since it has some American gadgets, it's prone to sanctions, the irony is despite being embargoed for a decade, we still perused for the F-16s......and believe me not without reason, some USAF commanders acknowledge and commend the PAF for the package it has selected for the Block-52s. (From the Horse's mouth)

Windy.
Iam not disputing the fact that we may not have needed EU products. The point is and the fact still remains that the Frogs did not allow us the products that we wanted and deserted us to go for a bigger market. the Gripen and M2Ks were in contention and we had the face saving solution of not having finances. the fact remains the tide did turn in 2002 when France embargoed our M3/5s and delayed delivery of the 90Bs on grounds of conflict in the region. While I cant blame them for it, our economic laxity certainly did not help.
Regards
Araz

 

[Zarvan]

Exactly!!!
We have been discussion this on an other thread already and personally i do not think J10 will be a smart move.
Pakistan Eyes T-50 as Trainer Option

In fact, i do not think there will be a move for that anyways. For the time PAF looks good operating F-16 and JF-17 that seem to be on right track of evolution. The Next Step will be a fifth generation. WE wont be inducting these in huge numbers but once that is done only then may be PAF will look to get a few 4.5 generation options to support them (if JF-17 cannot be taken to that level)

Sir the PAF I know there is no way the will stick to only two 4.5 Generation platforms

 

[The Headache]

meri jan we are happy u r in tension
pakistanphobia
is injurious to india
stay away from us

Ya. we have to because you guys stink and fart a lot !!!

 

[Manticore]

The reason the U.S didnt go for canards might be because they had inducted fifth gen platforms in the same time period ---- does paf have a fifth gen platform right now? does it have aesa and sabre right now? ----- If not then it does need some squadrons with this capability

 

[Zarvan]

The reason the U.S didnt go for canards might be because they had inducted fifth gen platforms in the same time period ---- does paf have a fifth gen platform right now? does it have aesa and sabre right now? ----- If not then it does need some squadrons with this capability

We need J-10 and need to get more F-16 both old and new ones

 

[Qaiser Ali Khan]

The Indian Military wanted the Indian Government to take the Chinese THREAT
seriouly ; and they took the help of the Indian MEDIA in this
some THREE / four years back

So our media did a SATURATION Coverage of this issue
and then Govt was forced to reassure the nation that it will take care of the problem

I think, because the reason mentioned, that slowly and gradually India is becoming a state run by its army. It is too dangerous. Pakistan is getting out of this quagmire and India is entering into it. I think US, who believes in wars, is trying to make India run on its own terms. Soon US will put to test India in war just like it did to Pakistan. But not now, we have learned much from history, war is no solution, we are siding with SCO block along with China and Russia .

 

[Stephen Cohen]

We need J-10

PAF can get J 10 ONLY when WS 10 is ready

 

[araz]

J-10 is an excellent aircraft when coming with IRST and AESA, two things that PAF lacks. See, PAF seems to realize that a 250 BVR fighter force (100 F-16s possibly and 150 JF-17s) is too little for the needs of the region. We need 350-400 fighters. A lot of Mirage and F-7 squadrons need replacement, meaning you have 250-300 jets that need to be retired ( currently, the JF-17s have only managed to replace A-5s, which weren't in the Multirole Mix anyway). Now a common discussion on this forum has been that they will not be 1 on 1 replacement because JF-17 brings quality so numbers are not needed. However, think about this, it takes a lot of time and training and logistics to stand up a squadron. If you are not replacing 1 on 1, then it means going from 400 combat jets to 250 would mean that around 6-8 squadrons are now no longer needed. You will have to disband them. What happens to their infrastructure, manpower and above all the ORBAT?
It is not like if we need more in the future we can simply start another squadron. You lose out on skills, training and time. So it makes sense to make it a 1 on 1 replacement as much as possible. And that is where a few squadrons of J-10 can help.

Another issue is that JF-17 carries only 7 hardpoints, with 3 fuel tanks, that leaves only 4 outer pylons for BVR and WVR missiles. J-10 doesn't suffer the same handicap. You can carry more missiles and or strike weapons. J-31 is still 5 years away from any meaningful debate. So if PAF went for J-10s i wouldn't be surprised.

What i mean to say in short is that a 250 BVR force might be superior to the 400 aircraft non BVR force, but then the needs of the region have changed as well. India is not going to stop at replacements, they will eventually go for the 40 squadrons mark in the next 15-20 years. A 400 BVR fighter force guarantees an ample deterrence, and if and when PAF decides to field 5th Gen, we will have some JF-17s and F-16s (read MLU units and Jordanian) retiring as well, so we will have space to absorb J-31 or whatever automatically.

Donatello
I will try and answer your post at length.
On the one hand you say we need AESA and IRST. We can in the time it will take to complete the deal and get the J10B delivered and our pilots trained and comfortable on J10s, incorporate AESA on JFT or not? I think we can. Secondly in an environment covered by AWACs on both sides, why cant we wait for the Bl.3 JFT to come on line with an ESA as reported widely. Also look at our choice of not going for AESA on the 16s and read it in the context of windy's post above.
You have talked about the need to have 350-400aircrafts. firstly, with 2500 JFTs and 70 odd F16s we are in the ball park figure. Secondly, I think that the PAF strategy of going for more/ MLUed F16s is a much more pragmatic one and fully support this decision for reasons which are clear to you and it would be an insult to your intelligence for me to explain them.Thirdly, While I do not feel qualified to comment on the effect of taking care of the redundancy as a result of increased effectiveness of the platforms, I do know that world over the airforces and other arms are cutting down manpower to have a leaner and meaner force. I do not think it will have much of an effect on the effectiveness of the force.The economic effects on the other hand will be good for the nation . I need not emphasize the waste in the armed forces currently.
You have talked about the hard points on JFT. With dual racks and a center line point under the inlet to carry a IRST/ POD, what more do you want and what addition will J10 provide. We have heard of strengthening of the wings and an inlet mounted port is not rocket science . Loiter time can be sorted by in flight refueling. I think you have a golden goose in house. Also I dont think modern day warfare is about long stay on station and one on one combat, it is more about net centric warfare and small fighters operating in a theater delivering their goods and getting out to deliver the next load. I have heard people like muradk saying that you will never see a plane loaded fully to go for combat. Once you have discharged the 4 BVRs and the enemy has discharged their load you will not stick around to find out what happened. So even though we may get J10 what does it add.
In my earlier post I have alluded to the IAF coming to terms with the fact that in the current climate no one can expect to spend 20 billion for a 100 odd platforms( apart from the arabs!!). I think they have had the same rethink that PAF has had . We need to up the game by moving on to next generation rather than stick around in this one. this is the only way of dealing with superiority, ie technological leap. I think the debate can go on but hte crux of the matter is what happens in the next few days. I think you will hear of Sub deal but no ACs.
This is why I think J10 brings nothing to the table , is equally intensive cash wise and labour wise than newer squadrons of JFT, and the next move of PAF will be a next generation platofrm.
Araz

Exactly!!!
We have been discussion this on an other thread already and personally i do not think J10 will be a smart move.
Pakistan Eyes T-50 as Trainer Option

In fact, i do not think there will be a move for that anyways. For the time PAF looks good operating F-16 and JF-17 that seem to be on right track of evolution. The Next Step will be a fifth generation. WE wont be inducting these in huge numbers but once that is done only then may be PAF will look to get a few 4.5 generation options to support them (if JF-17 cannot be taken to that level)

THAT'S WHAT IAM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I think, because the reason mentioned, that slowly and gradually India is becoming a state run by its army. It is too dangerous. Pakistan is getting out of this quagmire and India is entering into it. I think US, who believes in wars, is trying to make India run on its own terms. Soon US will put to test India in war just like it did to Pakistan. But not now, we have learned much from history, war is no solution, we are siding with SCO block along with China and Russia .

Such sweeping generalisations dont really help

Ours is a totally civilian led and driven democracy

Armed forces are very highly respected and their words matter a lot

But when the political executive becomes lax in matters of national security
( For example with respect to the Chinese threat )
OR

When a PM ( Man mohan Singh ) wants to pursue a FOOLISH dream like
giving up SIACHEN to Pakistan ; that is when the military has to take matters
into its own hands and take the help of the " PATRIOTIC " media
to get things done

 

[araz]

The reason the U.S didnt go for canards might be because they had inducted fifth gen platforms in the same time period ---- does paf have a fifth gen platform right now? does it have aesa and sabre right now? ----- If not then it does need some squadrons with this capability

I think Gambit might elaborate it a bit more but I dont think this was the reason. They made a delta based '16 and then abandoned it. We do not need fifth generation fighter now, but then all that we need to do is carry on on the footings that we are doing. I have responded to the AESA and SABRE bit .
Araz