Minister asks Pakistani women to dress properly in Saudi Arabia

[abdulbarijan]

Saudi Women are trying to get their rights back. The freedom they deserve. To be able to drive, to not be confined in a burqa. And You are trying to take your own women along with them in the opposite direction they are trying to go to. Great Job!!! And then people wonder why we don't have a good opinion of pure Pakistanis.

Do define 'freedom' first before you set out to achieve an arbitrary goal which you yourself are clueless about

 

[niaz]

IMHO this is not related to 'Freedom" or human rights. To be honest, there is a severe lack of “Civic” sense in Pakistan. Even though Quran tells us that cleanliness is Godliness, no one cares that Karachi is a rubbish dump. People frequently spit on the streets, urinate in public, dirty the wall with the paan spit and streets are full of advertisement about cure for the sexual diseases and also few bother about forming a ‘Queue’.

Sadly “Civic Sense” is much more than clean streets. It is also social ethics and consideration by the people of the unspoken norms of society and obedience of the laws of the country that one is visiting or residing.

This does not imply that all women should wear burqa when in Saudi Arabia and / or go topless in St Tropez. But it does mean that females should wear modestly in Saudi Arabia and should avoid “Pamplonne” seaside if they prefer to swim with their bikini tops on.

 

[Manama]

Do define 'freedom' first before you set out to achieve an arbitrary goal which you yourself are clueless about

How about you stay away from what we want for ourselves in KSA? lmao.
We want to get out of the backward age we live in. Saudi women already succeeded in getting their rights to vote. Rights to not being confined to a garment and to be able to drive is next.
Saudi women can already dress however they want unlike Pakistan. The difference is we want to be able to wear it in public too and not just our homes or party halls.

 

[Zibago]

How about you stay away from what we want for ourselves in KSA? lmao.
We want to get out of the backward age we live in. Saudi women already succeeded in getting their rights to vote. Rights to not being confined to a garment and to be able to drive is next.
Saudi women can already dress however they want unlike Pakistan. The difference is we want to be able to wear it in public too and not just our homes or party halls.

مسیر اس نی چولاں تک اوے
@django @I.R.A

People like you should keep their stupidity away from such threads .

We believe in being moderate , topi burkas and bikini are both extremes .

Also we should leave the choice of how Muslim one wants to be on the individual

 

[Manama]

مسیر اس نی چولاں تک اوے

smh lmfao

“Even while performing Hajj they do not cover themselves properly and modestly,” he said, adding “People should understand the culture and tradition of they country they are travelling to. Saudis are very strict about their women covering themselves properly and modestly.”

“Every single woman pilgrim should take at least two ‘abayas’ along with her,” he said.

Shows enough how they don't know KSA.

 

[Zibago]

even when we go from UK , we feel the same way

God bless Sharia4UK folks

i think its been years that you have note visited Pakistan....lol i hardly see 10% female wear this black thing and i live in Karachi and is well traveled through out country.

I dont know about them but in the Pakistan i live things work differently
OSP,s and outsiders have a distorted vision of what Pakistan is

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

Well first off ... welcome to the forum ... Now with that out of the way ... let's come to your argument about "choice" .. The choice you speak of, is not freedom like it is portrayed, it is just an illusion of freedom. As a general rule, most of the "empowered women of choice" live in areas (Western Europe, US, Australia) where cost of living is quite high, so you NEED an income to literally survive, if your not part of the 1% club. Hence work is indirectly imposed on you under the guise of "empowerment".

Coming to your main argument (in red) ... let's see ... A woman covered from head to toe doesn't have to worry about being judged by an individual simply based on her outer beauty. Now while that maybe a generic statement that you might've heard a zillion times already, let me get in to specifics so that you and the likes get to see the magnitude of this little one liner. A hijabi doesn't have to worry about showing her face, if she has a couple zits on it or not (something most teens struggle with during puberty, and has a documented history being studied in terms of a correlation with depression). A hijabi doesn't have to worry about "bad hair days". A hijabi doesn't have to worry about those 2 extra lbs on which if she were an "empowered woman" she would've heard comments on. I remember the biggest female star of our generation i.e. Selena Gomez being fat shamed on social media a year or a couple back when all she gained was a little mass. A hijabi escapes the judgement of the public in terms of fat shaming, which btw is among the causes for eating disorders like Anorexia and Bulimia which can be potentially fatal. A hijabi doesn't have to worry about wearing padding as opposed to the empowered women of the west, the teen versions of which are actually known to stuff their bras with tissues, padding etc. in an attempt to be "accepted". I can go on and on but I think this should be enough of a justification as to how the symbol of empowerment, the 'empowered' western woman isn't exactly what she is portrayed to be and the so called "oppressed" hijabi of the east is protected from the judgement the western female has to face since she's 13/14 years old which leads to many psychological issues and health risks.

Hmmm. I think youve got employment and slavery mixed up. That is the whole point of working to earn bread. To survive. Has anyone who's ever been employed been under the "illusion of freedom". When youre working youre showing that youre independent and that you have the ability to survive on your own. Two working people in a family will always provide better for one person. Its literally that simple. The circumstances dont change where ever you live, you need money on every corner of the earth. Covered head to toe in a veil sitting in your house and waiting for your spouse to bring home the bread is the ultimate form of dependency.

And honestly the "pros" you have listed for wearing a hijab are honestly not even considerable. Yes judgment based on looks exists. In every society and in every part of the world. If not looks, judgment will be passed on literally anything. Opinions. Wealth. Social standing. Its human nature to judge. Also I like how all the other problems are straight out of Hollywood. Anorexia and bulimia are mental disorders and could be imposed on anyone regardless of what theyre wearing. You honestly think fat shaming is an issue as compared to the problems women have to face in countries where veils are enforced ? Loss of identity. Loss of self esteem and worth. You think women in hijabs arent harassed ? Of course they are. They literally go from a human being to a sculpture. Also at the end of the day the whole concept comes down to a choice. Women in Saudi Arab have no CHOICE to wear as to what they want.

The element of choice is what determines whether someone is empowered or not.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Hmmm. I think youve got employment and slavery mixed up. That is the whole point of working to earn bread. To survive. Has anyone who's ever been employed been under the "illusion of freedom". When youre working youre showing that youre independent and that you have the ability to survive on your own. Two working people in a family will always provide better for one person. Its literally that simple. The circumstances dont change where ever you live, you need money on every corner of the earth. Covered head to toe in a veil sitting in your house and waiting for your spouse to bring home the bread is the ultimate form of dependency.

Do you think that humans are fundamentally 'independent' ? ... A concept called "dependency need" by (segan, 1992) states that universal dependency needs (certain needs that a human needs fulfilled, to thrive)remain attached to an individual throughout their life cycle. Moral of the story: human beings as a species is dependent on each other at every life cycle stage.Coming to your argument of 'being financially dependent on your husband is the ultimate form of dependency'. No one knows these 'financially independent people' more than the Human resource management or Human resource development scholars. The first theory you learn as a generic managerial student in a very basic and generic class of HRM, is the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, regarding motivation which in turn is used to make strategies for more productivity in employees and it identifies a need regarding 'social belonging' which basically highlights an individuals needs in terms of intimacy and family etc. In other words, scholars have determined that if you want a "financially independent" person to continue being financially independent, fulfillment of their needs in terms of family, intimacy and relationships is of utmost importance, something which is directly dependent on your life partner.

And honestly the "pros" you have listed for wearing a hijab are honestly not even considerable. Yes judgment based on looks exists. In every society and in every part of the world. If not looks, judgment will be passed on literally anything. Opinions. Wealth. Social standing. Its human nature to judge. Also I like how all the other problems are straight out of Hollywood. Anorexia and bulimia are mental disorders and could be imposed on anyone regardless of what theyre wearing. You honestly think fat shaming is an issue as compared to the problems women have to face in countries where veils are enforced ? Loss of identity. Loss of self esteem and worth. You think women in hijabs arent harassed ? Of course they are. They literally go from a human being to a sculpture. Also at the end of the day the whole concept comes down to a choice. Women in Saudi Arab have no CHOICE to wear as to what they want.

I see you like to debate as if it's an academic setting, while never providing the appropriate proof of your statements. Essentially your just 'winging it'. e.g.

• You claim that the veil can cause "loss of identity" .. ? Any proof? Self identity is basically a concept explaining to an individual "who am I" ... Does a veil over the face in a PUBLIC SETTING ONLY, hinder one's sense of self concept?
• "Loss of self esteem" really? So after I give a whole paragraph on how the western "empowered" woman is on the other end of attacks on her self esteem from the tender age of 13-14 resulting in depression, eating disorders etc etc. your gonna come here, minimize my points by calling them "straight outta Hollywood" and just say that wearing the veil somehow causes "loss of self esteem" while not even bringing up a single example, anecdote or even platitude to justify your case.You somehow think that the so called empowered woman of the west, who was used one time after another with one rough relationship after another through her teens till her 30's with boyfriends pointing out flaws in her character, her looks, things she is sensitive about ... her colleagues and peers judging her on her looks every chance they get, be it social media or in person, her media showing her the likes of victoria's secret where she must have thigh gaps, she must not have any belly fat, she must have fuller lips, she must have wider hips to compete with the standard of what her society deems 'attractive' ... that woman has a high self esteem and self worth ... really?
• Lastly, a woman who hides her beauty via a veil according to you goes from a "human being to a sculpture" ... while a woman who wears tight leggins, tank tops, shows off every curve of her body is what exactly?

The element of choice is what determines whether someone is empowered or not.

Okay ... so how many "empowered" women of the west have the CHOICE of just leaving their jobs and stay at home raising their kids till they hit puberty, while you keep in mind the rising cost of living in those countries... The same countries with empowered women are also putting up burka bans thereby curbing the element of choice ... (e.g. France, Belgium, Netherlands)... Like I said ... freedom and empowerment even under your definition is an illusion in the west for your regular Jane, Jenette and Miranda.

How about you stay away from what we want for ourselves in KSA? lmao.
We want to get out of the backward age we live in. Saudi women already succeeded in getting their rights to vote. Rights to not being confined to a garment and to be able to drive is next.
Saudi women can already dress however they want unlike Pakistan. The difference is we want to be able to wear it in public too and not just our homes or party halls.

Just asking you as to how you define freedom ... but then again, going by your own line of argument... why do you think that YOU (a Pakistani lady) have any say in what KSA deems appropriate inside their borders?

 

[BATMAN]

I can confirm, skirts long/short are not allowed in Saudi.

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

Okay ... so how many "empowered" women of the west have the CHOICE of just leaving their jobs and stay at home raising their kids till they hit puberty, while you keep in mind the rising cost of living in those countries... The same countries with empowered women are also putting up burka bans thereby curbing the element of choice ... (e.g. France, Belgium, Netherlands)... Like I said ... freedom and empowerment even under your definition is an illusion in the west for your regular Jane, Jenette and Miranda.

So basically anyone who has worked to earn their bread to feed their children has been under the "illusion of freedom".Youre comparing working because of an economic need to forcing women to act and dress as to how you see appropriate due to..... ? What exactly? Youre saying that sitting under a veil not free to work or drive is supposedly empowering ? Yeah ok buddy. Also stop reading a story and then closing your eyes to want you dont to see. Youve supposedly read on the "oppressive law" that is preventing women to wear the burqa, you know why that was done. For security reasons, we should know this best of all because a terrorist almost ran away under the veil undetected from a mosque under siege (laal masjid incident). Only niqabs are banned.Hijabs are still permitted. Even if they werent its no big deal because theyre not muslim countries. Its not like we allow Jane and Jenette to roam around in swimsuits over here.

At the end of the day it all comes down to consequence. If jane doesnt work what happens ? Economic hardship ? If a female wears a T shirt in public in Saudi Arab... ? Do you really need to be told ?
Just ask a woman under the veil in the blazing sun. Does she feel empowered or free ? Thats literally all that needs to be done.

 

[abdulbarijan]

So basically anyone who has worked to earn their bread to feed their children has been under the "illusion of freedom".Youre comparing working because of an economic need to forcing women to act and dress as to how you see appropriate due to..... ? What exactly? Youre saying that sitting under a veil not free to work or drive is supposedly empowering ? Yeah ok buddy. Also stop reading a story and then closing your eyes to want you dont to see. Youve supposedly read on the "oppressive law" that is preventing women to wear the burqa, you know why that was done. For security reasons, we should know this best of all because a terrorist almost ran away under the veil undetected from a mosque under siege (laal masjid incident). Only niqabs are banned.Hijabs are still permitted. Even if they werent its no big deal because theyre not muslim countries. Its not like we allow Jane and Jenette to roam around in swimsuits over here.

At the end of the day it all comes down to consequence. If jane doesnt work what happens ? Economic hardship ? If a female wears a T shirt in public in Saudi Arab... ? Do you really need to be told ?
Just ask a woman under the veil in the blazing sun. Does she feel empowered or free ? Thats literally all that needs to be done.

-According to your own definition freedom/ empowerment = choice. Based on that basic construct, you deem that a woman whose society enforces the view that she should remain in a gender role i.e. house maker and should cover up her beauty in public is an oppressive society.But a society which enforces (via cost of living and societal expectation) that a woman should work and that everybody should be able to see her naked even while she's clothed by defining fashion and beauty standards to the point where legitimate health risks arise as a result, according to you that society is somehow empowering.
For someone whose so worried about the woman under the veil in 45 degrees temperature, you sure don't waste anytime on the little girl who can't even force food down her throat, because of the eating disorder she's got because of the societal expectation of perfection.

Instead of beating around the bush ... why don't you just come out and say it ... that according to you, women performing a certain role, and dressing a certain way based on the societal expectation is only oppressive in the case of the east, but when it's the west .. it's empowering!

-When a law explicitly curbs the freedom which you use to define 'empowerment' in the west, instead of being intellectually consistent and calling it out for what it is, you go for your excuses regarding 'security concerns'.
Guess what my boy, the Indian PM Rajiv Ghandi (late) was a victim of a terrorist attack, where the perpetrator, a woman belonging from the tamil tigers hid the explosives in her bra. Similarly, you can go and search about the underwear bomber. If your intellectually consistent, then I guess you'd have no problem if tomorrow there was a bra and undergarments ban in the west, because a legitimate argument can be made in terms of security about those articles of clothing as well based on past events....

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

-According to your own definition freedom/ empowerment = choice. Based on that basic construct, you deem that a woman whose society enforces the view that she should remain in a gender role i.e. house maker and should cover up her beauty in public is an oppressive society.But a society which enforces (via cost of living and societal expectation) that a woman should work and that everybody should be able to see her naked even while she's clothed by defining fashion and beauty standards to the point where legitimate health risks arise as a result, according to you that soceity is somehow empowering.

Instead of beating around the bush ... why don't you just come out and say it ... that according to you, women performing a certain role, and dressing a certain way based on the societal expectation is only oppressive in the case of the east, but when it's the west .. it's empowering!

-Secondly, it was YOU who stated that freedom = choice, but when a law explicitly curbs that freedom in the west, instead of being intellectually consistent and calling it out for what it is, you go for your excuses regarding 'security concerns'. Guess what my boy, the Indian PM Rajiv Ghandi (late) was a victim of a terrorist attack, where the perpetrator a woman belonging from the tamil tigers hid the explosives in her bra. Similarly, you can go and search about the underwear bomber. If your intellectually consistent, then I guess you'd have no problem if tomorrow there was a bra and undergarments ban in the west, because a legitimate argument can be made in terms of security about those articles of clothing as well based on past events....

LOL why do you keep bringing up that if a woman works its because society is forcing her to do so ? How is that even an arguement ? SOCIETY EXPECTS EVERYONE TO WORK. Doesnt matter male or female you work to become the bread winner.And OFCOURSE the niqab ban was done for security purpose because women couldnt be identified due to the niqab. You think they have a secret grudge against muslim women and want women to roam around exposed? Had this been the case they wouldnt have just banned the niqab they wouldve banned the hijab as well and pretty much any dressing associated with Islam. And stop giving rubbish examples of selena gomez or Rajiv Gandhi. This is not about indviduals but literally about 50% of the population of a country. Im not in a mood to debate any longer and you havent addressed any of the previous things i bought up earlier. So ill ask again.

Will a woman who CHOSE not to work have the same consequence as a woman in Saudi Arab who chose to wear a T-shirt in public ?
Can a woman chose to wear something in western societies ?
Is a woman who's not allowed to drive empowered ?
Do you think women like being covered head to toe in a black veil under the blazing sun. Do you think they feel empowered ?
Do you really believe that ALL women who wear a burqa do it by choice ?

 

[abdulbarijan]

LOL why do you keep bringing up that if a woman works its because society is forcing her to do so ? How is that even an arguement ? SOCIETY EXPECTS EVERYONE TO WORK. Doesnt matter male or female you work to become the bread winner.And OFCOURSE the niqab ban was done for security purpose because women couldnt be identified due to the niqab. You think they have a secret grudge against muslim women and want women to roam around exposed? Had this been the case they wouldnt have just banned the niqab they wouldve banned the hijab as well and pretty much any dressing associated with Islam. And stop giving rubbish examples of selena gomez or Rajiv Gandhi. This is not about indviduals but literally about 50% of the population of a country. Im not in a mood to debate any longer and you havent addressed any of the previous things i bought up earlier. So ill ask again.

Will a woman who CHOSE not to work have the same consequence as a woman in Saudi Arab who chose to wear a T-shirt in public ?
Can a woman chose to wear something in western societies ?
Is a woman who's not allowed to drive empowered ?
Do you think women like being covered head to toe in a black veil under the blazing sun. Do you think they feel empowered ?
Do you really believe that ALL women who wear a burqa do it by choice ?

I know why you won't because up till now you've pretty much exposed your own arguments.

• According to you, Empowerment = Choice
  - Hence, A woman whose society expects of her to be the homemaker and take care of the children and dress conservatively = oppressed
  
  -But, A woman whose society expects of her to work and enforces it via cost of living while expecting that woman to dress provocatively, uses media to impose unrealistic standards of beauty to the point where a sizeable population of little girls actually have to deal with eating disorders which can be fatal.
  That society= Empowering.
  
• Banning muslim attire by these empowering societies
  -It's just security concerns nothing else.
  
  -Events where other clothing articles like Bras and underwear are used for terrorist activities (Rajiv Ghandi, ex PM of India, NorthWest Airlines flight 253), and your asked that if you would support a banning of those because after all .. "security concerns" instead of addressing the point you just call "rubbish" ...

The fact of the matter is, your points are based on double standards, and no matter how much you try to do your 'intelligent framing' to convince no one but yourself that you somehow have a point, you really don't because your working on assumptions and that 'know it all' attitude of yours. I on the other hand am working on articles and cited scholarly literature to try and give credibility to what I post.

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

I know why you won't because up till now you've pretty much exposed your own arguments.

• According to you, Empowerment = Choice
  - Hence, A woman whose society expects of her to be the homemaker and take care of the children and dress conservatively = oppressed
  
  -But, A woman whose society expects of her to work and enforces it via cost of living while expecting that woman to dress provocatively, uses media to impose unrealistic standards of beauty to the point where a sizeable population of little girls actually have to deal with eating disorders which can be fatal.
  That society= Empowering.
  
• Banning muslim attire by these empowering societies
  -It's just security concerns nothing else.
  
  -Events where other clothing articles like Bras and underwear are used for terrorist activities (Rajiv Ghandi, ex PM of India, NorthWest Airlines flight 253), and your asked that if you would support a banning of those because after all .. "security concerns" instead of addressing the point you just call "rubbish" ...

The fact of the matter is, your points are based on double standards, and no matter how much you try to do your 'intelligent framing' to convince no one but yourself that you somehow have a point, you really don't because your working on assumptions and that 'know it all' attitude of yours. I on the other hand am working on articles and cited scholarly literature to try and give credibility to what I post.

Could you please just answer the questions , they're all i have left because my arguement is based on double standards and iv pretty much exposed it all myself.

 

[Manama]

Just asking you as to how you define freedom ... but then again, going by your own line of argument... why do you think that YOU (a Pakistani lady) have any say in what KSA deems appropriate inside their borders?

Because I am Saudi as well. This is why I think i pretty much do have say for what i want in my homeland.