Minister asks Pakistani women to dress properly in Saudi Arabia

[StraightShooter]

Since theyre going to a foreign country they should go with whatever that country demands of them.

So you mean when in Saudi wear a Burqa and when in EU wear a Bikini

 

[Well.wisher]

Are there elements in the right wing which try to enforce their views on the population basing it on Islam while it has nothing to do with the religious doctrine? Yes .. I remember, Ustaad Nouman Ali Khan addressing such an issue regarding ayaat, which our moulvi hazrat interpret as the general permission to hit their wives, and he went and cleared it with his seniors and it came out that his seniors (in scholarship) interpreted it differently where the permission was ONLY in the case of a spouse cheating on the husband ... So yes, there are examples of such events occurring. However, are you an Islamic scholar?

I'm a scholar in the subject of managerial sciences. Now in this vast field, if you bring something for me to explain, I might attempt to do so and succeed. But if you come to me and ask for me to make a call for whats a right or wrong (for instance let's consider a call on managerial strategy) I, even as a scholar in the same field would not be able to help you around 90% of the time because my specialization is in ONE FACET UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS of a huge field. If only someone brought to me a case of the same facet under the same conditions which I've thoroughly researched and know the scholarly literature and the progression of literature from the past to the present, ONLY THEN can I make calls on the strategy as to whats right or wrong in that particular situation.

So how is it that you and I can make calls on whats right and wrong without having the relevant knowledge, context etc in serious religious discussions? I find it quite funny when people on the liberal/left end of the spectrum insult people on the right because of 'ignorance' and all, because when it comes to religion, we are just as clueless if not more.

g.

No I'm not a liberal and I'm not even a Islamic scholar .
I read , I discuss , I feel , and I experience it then I say it .
When I say that religion is easy and it's not telling to opress women , it's because I experienced it in this beautiful deen and the closeness of God . And I don't find my God as strict and judgemental and unforgiving as the people are in the world.
God put some restrictions for you but God has prescribed the enough limits , and it is only for your best . God has put these teachings on you according to your capability but the interference of some strict people in this has made it look bad.
You know why bible was corrupted , because humans interfered with God's commandments. .. so obviously men has to stay away from God's commandment and try not to interfere .
And no , I'm not like u , I'm just a student .

Are there elements in the right wing which try to enforce their views on the population basing it on Islam while it has nothing to do with the religious doctrine? Yes .. I remember, Ustaad Nouman Ali Khan addressing such an issue regarding ayaat, which our moulvi hazrat interpret as the general permission to hit their wives, and he went and cleared it with his seniors and it came out that his seniors (in scholarship) interpreted it differently where the permission was ONLY in the case of a spouse cheating on the husband ... So yes, there are examples of such events occurring. However, are you an Islamic scholar?

I'm a scholar in the subject of managerial sciences. Now in this vast field, if you bring something for me to explain, I might attempt to do so and succeed. But if you come to me and ask for me to make a call for whats a right or wrong (for instance let's consider a call on managerial strategy) I, even as a scholar in the same field would not be able to help you around 90% of the time because my specialization is in ONE FACET UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS of a huge field. If only someone brought to me a case of the same facet under the same conditions which I've thoroughly researched and know the scholarly literature and the progression of literature from the past to the present, ONLY THEN can I make calls on the strategy as to whats right or wrong in that particular situation.

So how is it that you and I can make calls on whats right and wrong without having the relevant knowledge, context etc in serious religious discussions? I find it quite funny when people on the liberal/left end of the spectrum insult people on the right because of 'ignorance' and all, because when it comes to religion, we are just as clueless if not more.

Nope ... Like I said ... I know many guys like that. Granted, most guys will not stare at the ground while talking to you, but when carrying out a conversation, they'll just maintain an eye contact in a normal convo. It's not "stalking" "harassing" or "Dirty looking" if a guy is just maintaining an eye contact.

Secondly, I find it really funny when all the culpability is thrown on the male gender for all this sort of stuff. Let's not forget, women do this sort of thing too and you actually get away with it because when women do it ... it's not seen as malicious as men doing the same thing.

Okay , all humans are same and can err irrespective to gender or race or religion .

 

[Baby Leone]

in all honesty, 80-90% of women when in public in Pakistan wear full black abaya, i highly doubt they wouldn't do the same in saudi?

i think its been years that you have note visited Pakistan....lol i hardly see 10% female wear this black thing and i live in Karachi and is well traveled through out country.

 

[Well.wisher]

So you mean when in Saudi wear a Burqa and when in EU wear a Bikini

People like you should keep their stupidity away from such threads .

We believe in being moderate , topi burkas and bikini are both extremes .

 

[StraightShooter]

People like you should keep their stupidity away from such threads .

We believe in being moderate , topi burkas and bikini are both extremes .

What's extreme is others deciding what is right for me.

Burkas and Bikinis are just excuses.

 

[El Sidd]

A piece of clothing should be the last thing on anyone's mind in Pakistan as things stand. Social injustice has bred extremists both on the left and on the right.

Modesty is relative and is to be defined by the person itself. This is the most superficial layer of religion which we have learned to exploit and the fact it takes other 'by design' oppression of women to go unnoticed.

I would personally like to see people discussing traditional or cultural oppression which has cloaked itself under the banner of Islam in the sub-continent. Few notable mentions would be:
1) Education not just for the Elites but the commoner as well
2) Inheritance of women as promised by law of the land
3) Equality when it comes to earning a livelihood
4) Social justice

These things are there for every blind deaf and dumb to see but these are never discussed. Yet we will go on for a thousand years discussing if the ankles that one bloke saw caused him to become a rapist.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

[Well.wisher]

What's extreme is others deciding what is right for me.

Burkas and Bikinis are just excuses.

Oky . Thnx for your sense.

A piece of clothing should be the last thing on anyone's mind in Pakistan as things stand. Social injustice has bred extremists both on the left and on the right.

Modesty is relative and is to be defined by the person itself. This is the most superficial layer of religion which we have learned to exploit and the fact it takes other 'by design' oppression of women to go unnoticed.

I would personally like to see people discussing traditional or cultural oppression which has cloaked itself under the banner of Islam in the sub-continent. Few notable mentions would be:
1) Education not just for the Elites but the commoner as well
2) Inheritance of women as promised by law of the land
3) Equality when it comes to earning a livelihood
4) Social justice

These things are there for every blind deaf and dumb to see but these are never discussed. Yet we will go on for a thousand years discussing if the ankles that one bloke saw caused him to become a rapist.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Right .

Women getting killed due to not paying dowry and on honours , getting acid attacks , getting beaten by sasuraal should be the real concern of the religious ministers not how we dress or not .

 

[El Sidd]

Oky . Thnx for your sense.



Right .

Women getting killed due to not paying dowry and on honours , getting acid attacks , getting beaten by sasuraal should be the real concern of the religious ministers not how we dress or not .

Nope. That is fundamentally wrong.

It is not of his concern as well. That is to be dealt by Police and law enforcing agencies. If you leave it to the ministry of religion to do that for you, you will end up in a police state like Saudi Arabia.

The acid attacks, marriage with religious books, forced marriages, domestic abuse or any other social evil that exist is more cultural / traditional in nature than religious.

The ministry of religious affairs can only make recommendations and nothing more nothing less and judging by the headline of the thread that is what he has done.

We have become too dramatic and too conspiracy loving people where we seek discord happily among tons of positives. Social divide through social injustice is the new ploy against Pakistan and observe the posts in the thread to find out where, why and how.

 

[Morpheus]

Dressing modestly involves wearing clothes that cover body, and doesn't reveal the figure. I think our women's Shalwar kameez + dupta does that job very well. The women that come for hajj and umrah, wear that on top of the Abayah. Even the arab women here dress like that, some wear clothes that are less modest, over the Abayah. What more does this guy want? Does he have some interest in a clothing store, and is issuing statements to push sales?

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

So you mean when in Saudi wear a Burqa and when in EU wear a Bikini

Im not aware of any part of europe where bikinis are uniform for women.

Nope. That is fundamentally wrong.

It is not of his concern as well. That is to be dealt by Police and law enforcing agencies. If you leave it to the ministry of religion to do that for you, you will end up in a police state like Saudi Arabia.

The acid attacks, marriage with religious books, forced marriages, domestic abuse or any other social evil that exist is more cultural / traditional in nature than religious.

The ministry of religious affairs can only make recommendations and nothing more nothing less and judging by the headline of the thread that is what he has done.

We have become too dramatic and too conspiracy loving people where we seek discord happily among tons of positives. Social divide through social injustice is the new ploy against Pakistan and observe the posts in the thread to find out where, why and how.

How can you say religious authorities shouldnt have a role in this ? Ofcourse they should. The aftermath of this situation is to be handled by the police but what about the initiative of these acts. Time and time again these crimes have been masked by religious figured because they bring up scripture into this matter instead of seeing what it is. A crime. Even their silence is enough to give people a reason for these crimes.

 

[abdulbarijan]

No I'm not a liberal and I'm not even a Islamic scholar .
I read , I discuss , I feel , and I experience it then I say it .
When I say that religion is easy and it's not telling to opress women , it's because I experienced it in this beautiful deen and the closeness of God . And I don't find my God as strict and judgemental and unforgiving as the people are in the world.
God put some restrictions for you but God has prescribed the enough limits , and it is only for your best . God has put these teachings on you according to your capability but the interference of some strict people in this has made it look bad. You know why bible was corrupted , because humans interfered with God's commandments. .. so obviously men has to stay away from God's commandment and try not to interfere .

-But what is "oppression" ? The modern standards of oppression dictate that a woman in middle east or south east asia, who is a housewife is generally oppressed, but a woman who is serving 300 men onboard an airplane is empowered. A woman who chooses to hide her beauty from the rest of the world is oppressed, while a woman who is a hollywood A lister who goes about filming intimate scenes in a movie which only serve as eye candy for both men and women ... where the woman is nothing but an object... that OBJECT is supposedly an empowered woman.

-BTW be very very careful when you present that argument (in red) because it is the same argument that "progressive Christians" of the west use to defend and even justify homosexuality while all Abrahamic religions are strictly against homosexuality. This is exactly why I stay away from religious discussions on pdf because most of the people (including myself) are only beginners in terms of our reading and understanding of religious literature and here on pdf, you have members making sweeping statements, while I'm pretty sure that 95% of them have never even studied the Quran with the translation, not to mention the hadith and the tafseers and the relative history and context of all the literature available.

And no , I'm not like u , I'm just a student .Okay , all humans are same and can err irrespective to gender or race or religion .

Well I'm a student as well ... BTW I can't believe we're actually agreeing on something

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

But what is "oppression" ? The modern standards of oppression dictate that a woman in middle east or south east asia, who is a housewife is generally oppressed, but a woman who is serving 300 men onboard an airplane is empowered. A woman who chooses to hide her beauty from the rest of the world is oppressed, while a woman who is a hollywood A lister who goes about filming intimate scenes in a movie which only serve as eye candy for both men and women ... where the woman is nothing but an object... that woman is supposedly empowered. We are prisoners of the moment (in terms of our experiences/ thought process/ arguments), and we form our arguments based upon how we view a subject in that moment.

Well I'm a student as well ... but then again I can't believe we're actually agreeing on something

Ofcourse being oppressed or free is relative to whatever part of the world youre living is. Ofcourse society and standards will dictate our perception of things. But idk in which part of the world or society and under what logic a woman covered head to toe in a black veil under the 45 degree blazing heat would be considered empowered. Also the difference between this woman and one 30,000 feet in the air is that one is employment of ones choosing and the others a lifestyle imposed by other with no element of choice. Also in case you werent aware of it, male stewards exist too.

 

[Manama]

Lmao people don't know Saudi Arabia enough.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Ofcourse being oppressed or free is relative to whatever part of the world youre living is. Ofcourse society and standards will dictate our perception of things. But idk in which part of the world or society and under what logic a woman covered head to toe in a black veil under the 45 degree blazing heat would be considered empowered. Also the difference between this woman and one 30,000 feet in the air is that one is employment of ones choosing and the others a lifestyle imposed by other with no element of choice. Also in case you werent aware of it, male stewards exist too.

Well first off ... welcome to the forum ... Now with that out of the way ... let's come to your argument about "choice" .. The choice you speak of, is not freedom like it is portrayed, it is just an illusion of freedom. As a general rule, most of the "empowered women of choice" live in areas (Western Europe, US, Australia) where cost of living is quite high, so you NEED an income to literally survive, if your not part of the 1% club. Hence work is indirectly imposed on you under the guise of "empowerment".

Coming to your main argument (in red) ... let's see ... A woman covered from head to toe doesn't have to worry about being judged by an individual simply based on her outer beauty. Now while that maybe a generic statement that you might've heard a zillion times already, let me get in to specifics so that you and the likes get to see the magnitude of this little one liner. A hijabi doesn't have to worry about showing her face, if she has a couple zits on it or not (something most teens struggle with during puberty, and has a documented history being studied in terms of a correlation with depression). A hijabi doesn't have to worry about "bad hair days". A hijabi doesn't have to worry about those 2 extra lbs on which if she were an "empowered woman" she would've heard comments on. I remember the biggest female star of our generation i.e. Selena Gomez being fat shamed on social media a year or a couple back when all she gained was a little mass. A hijabi escapes the judgement of the public in terms of fat shaming, which btw is among the causes for eating disorders like Anorexia and Bulimia which can be potentially fatal. A hijabi doesn't have to worry about wearing padding as opposed to the empowered women of the west, the teen versions of which are actually known to stuff their bras with tissues, padding etc. in an attempt to be "accepted". I can go on and on but I think this should be enough of a justification as to how the symbol of empowerment, the 'empowered' western woman isn't exactly what she is portrayed to be and the so called "oppressed" hijabi of the east is protected from the judgement the western female has to face since she's 13/14 years old which leads to many psychological issues and health risks.

 

[Manama]

Saudi Women are trying to get their rights back. The freedom they deserve. To be able to drive, to not be confined in a burqa. And You are trying to take your own women along with them in the opposite direction they are trying to go to. Great Job!!! And then people wonder why we don't have a good opinion of pure Pakistanis.