Military Simulation - The Indo-Pak conflict - A hyperbole

[JamD]

I really just had thoughts in mind - but, this could be fun if we gave our own spin provided we make it interesting.

for e.g.
while we don’t need to do 16 narratives , I recall the flight sim thing I did years before through a friend where we kept changing scenarios to see what would happen with screenshots thrown in.

After all, if this sim is good enough for BaE and their customers it should be for the discerning tastes of PDF?

What say ye @JamD @HRK @Dazzler @krash @The Eagle @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Foxtrot Alpha @LeGenD @Bilal. ? Again, when you have nothing better to do and the other "F-16V are coming" discussions finally get tiresome?

One can just start off with the next "opening scenario" - whatever you wish to paint it and lets see how it comes out.
"
Mission
Eliminate the three (3) Forward Operating Bases near the border in southern Kashmir and northern Punjab. FOBs Serpent, Hydra, and Harpy are already located for striking.
In addition, engage Indian armored and mechanized forces that have crossed the border. Their exact locations are unknown, however they are reported to be East of Lahore, near Shakargarr, and near Hadali.
Execution
Using aircraft based at PAF Murid, Minhas, and Skardu, neutralize all stated high value targets as well as other threats such as SAMs and Indian CAP aircraft. In addition, a Hatf 7 cruise missile battery is available for use.
Friendly Forces
PAF Murid
6x Mirage IIIO (F/A)
6x F-16CJ+
4x Z-10
1x Falcon 20 OECM
PAF Minhas
8x JF-17 Blk. 3
6x F-16AM
1x Saab 2000 AEW&C
PAF Skardu
4x Mirage 5F

Do the same for enemy forces - where and how many and then let the sims algorithms do the rest.

I reckon it might be more fun than the usual hyperboles we get??

For all interested - lets do a cut off time for entries by 11AM PST 5/16 and then Ill enter into the sim to generate the outcome

As far as I know Murid is primarily a UAV base. I imagine it can used as an FOB but I don't think it's equipped to handle mirages and f16s. Why not Sargodha?

Also speaking of UAVs, I reckon those will play a role too. I find it weird that ISPR announced am armed UAV test back in 2015 and total silence ever since. Maybe it's just that we tested an import and have been trying to make a local version ever since. Or that we do have a deployed capability that we choose not to advertise (like our EW). If it's a 2024 timeframe I expect Burraqs, Shapar Is and IIs, to form the first wave of intelligence gathering/decoy/strike package, especially since Murid is right there.

 

[niaz]

It is highly unlikely that Chinese armed forces would join Pakistani forces in their war with India because this could result in the USA coming out on the Indian side. Chinese help would therefore be probably limited to providing material support to Pakistan. Saudis, Indonesians, or any other country coming out openly on Pakistan's side! Perish the thought, all have too much at stake and would not risk Indian wrath.

Whatever may or may not be the result of the simulation; the disparity in men & material between the armed forces of India & Pakistan coupled with the enormous economic strength of India must inevitably lead to an Indian victory in any conflict lasting for more than a few weeks despite the Chinese help to Pakistan. This means that the nuclear threshold is likely to be crossed within a couple of weeks of any full-scale conflict.

If this were to happen, even with the active help of the USA, at least a dozen or so of the Pakistani nuclear-armed missiles would find their targets with a lot more of the Indian missiles destroying Pakistani cities in the retaliatory attacks. Pakistan would be reduced to rubble but India would also be damaged to an extent that it would take at least 25 to 30 years if not more to recover. Hence Indian ambition of becoming a global player flushed down the drain.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, all incursions by Indian armed forces into Pakistan territory must be retaliated with equal intensity and without delay despite the risk of serious consequences. If Pakistan has to go, she needs to go down fighting bravely. I am, however, of the opinion that superpowers would ensure that any all-out war between India & Pakistanis is stopped before the nuclear threshold is reached.

 

[SQ8]

As far as I know Murid is primarily a UAV base. I imagine it can used as an FOB but I don't think it's equipped to handle mirages and f16s. Why not Sargodha?

Also speaking of UAVs, I reckon those will play a role too. I find it weird that ISPR announced am armed UAV test back in 2015 and total silence ever since. Maybe it's just that we tested an import and have been trying to make a local version ever since. Or that we do have a deployed capability that we choose not to advertise (like our EW). If it's a 2024 timeframe I expect Burraqs, Shapar Is and IIs, to form the first wave of intelligence gathering/decoy/strike package, especially since Murid is right there.

We can add all of that to a simulation. I think the outcome may be interesting to most members

 

[notorious_eagle]

l

Every one of your points is debatable... Even of strategic depth.... Israel can say that it doesn't have strategic depth, but not us....p

But then, my question still remains, why india doesn't wage a month long war today to destroy the economic and military potential of Pakistan? Why hasn't it been already done? Why you are letting Pakistan to strengthen, allowing it initially to even become an atomic power....?

You're making too much sense and asking deep questions to @The Maverick and Indians in general for which they have no answers. There is a lack of ability to introspect and think critically.

If you look at the mindset of @The Maverick and other Indians in general, it perfectly reflects the over confidence and ego they want to showcase as a nation. This is to the benefit of Pakistan because if your enemy underestimates you and overestimates his own self, that benefits us as was perfectly demonstrated on Feb 27 where the smaller force overwhelmed the superior force through better planning, training and tactics.

The concept of self reflection or introspection does not really exist in India. It was perfectly evident after Feb 27 where the Indian Government to save face claimed that WC Abhi shot down an F16 before he went down. Nobody in India bothered or dared to question the Government narrative that if WC Abhi shot down an F16, why were all his A2A missiles recovered intact? Or it was demonstrated again when the PLA killed 20 Indian troops. Immediately the Indian Government released a number of 43 Chinese killed. Nobody in India bothered to ask the question that if we killed 43 PLA soldiers; how in the hell did the PLA manage to kill the Brigade Commander (a Lt Col), captured his 2nd in command (another Lt Col), 1 Major and 3 Captains. Essentially, the entire leadership of the Brigade was knocked out but Indians still believe they killed 43 PLA soldiers.

I think overall, this psyche and the Indian psychotic obsession with Pakistan is a great case study for any aspiring Psychology student. The more the underestimate us, the more it benefits us. Its amusing to see how the SU30MKI that was hailed by the Indians as 'Raptor of Asia' now being called the 'AMRAAM Dodger'.

 

[Bilal.]

We can add all of that to a simulation. I think the outcome may be interesting to most members

Can we add MRLS (A100 ) and artillery for engagement and channeling of armor columns into kill zone(s)?

Also the same can be used in addition to air elements to soften the FOBs if with range (120km).

 

[The Eagle]

Again, when you have nothing better to do and the other "F-16V are coming" discussions finally get tiresome?

Totally agreed Chief. Went through half of OP. Currently in traveling mode. I will joining you in details soon. It is in-fact an interesting exercise.

On short note, do we have an option to fly some diversion sorties in such mission SIM or is it just one mission at a time based execution? Otherwise, fighter sweep missions to be added as well.

 

[Eagle_Nest]

What a crap! No rule of turkey, iran, afghanistan.
Where is nasar and fateh

 

[SQ8]

Can we add MRLS (A100 ) and artillery for engagement and channeling of armor columns into kill zone(s)?

Also the same can be used in addition to air elements to soften the FOBs if with range (120km).

Ask for whatever, and Ill see if they are simulating it.

Totally agreed Chief. Went through half of OP. Currently in traveling mode. I will joining you in details soon. It is in-fact an interesting exercise.

On short note, do we have an option to fly some diversion sorties in such mission SIM or is it just one mission at a time based execution? Otherwise, fighter sweep missions to be added as well.

It accommodates for everything

 

[LeGenD]

Even a short war will.bring Pakistan.to it's knees,so quickly .
reason being all.your big cities and infrastructure is near the border. The impact via power black outs and no flights. no telephone lines will hit you guys so hard..Lahore Islamabad even Karachi are too close to the fire line.
your forex,reserve is like 5% of India.s and the indian navy will.try and blockade you..

indian commercial.cities Delhi Mumbai Chennai Bangalore are 1000.miles,away..
throwing the odd missle will.be like needle at an elephant.
and no one's using nukes, you have no idea,where arihant is with it's nuclear strike missles.
it will.be attritional war but as I have always said finish the f16 fleet and the air power goes to India..Even if 100.mki and mirages are lost take out 50.or 60.f16 and it's over..
that will.be the plan I'm.sure along with sea lines,denile and hitting Karachi and gwader hard.
I doubt India will.take land more search and destroy your military assets and bases,

FYI

1. Islamabad (and Rawalpindi) are beyond the reach of Indian Army Artillery.
2. Lahore is vulnerable to Indian Army Artillery (granted); Amritsar is vulnerable to Pakistan Army Artillery in turn (whoops...).
3. Karachi is beyond the reach of Indian Army Artillery as well.

Following are largest cities of India:

Sultana and Satyanarayana (2020)

4. PAF can conduct sorties over Indian cities such as New Dehli, Jaipur and Mumbai respectively.

LINK: https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/03/01/pakistan-f-16-fighters-terrorists.html

Notice those Conformal Fuel Tanks?

Every F-16 in the inventory of PAF is modernized with Block 52+ (18 in total) and MLU Block 40 (57 in total). These jet fighters can be equipped with JDAMs (large inventory) to strike at targets of value in Indian cities such as New Dehli, Jaipur and Mumbai respectively.

5. Mumbai is also within reach of Pakistan Navy and Ballistic Missiles of Pakistan Army.
6. Every Indian city including Nagpur, Hyderabad, Bangalore, Chennai and Kolkata are within reach of Ballistic Missiles of Pakistan Army by the way.

- - -

Indian Army can choose to shell Lahore and Sialkot from across the border but Pakistan Army will counter-shell positions of Indian Army (and possibly Amritsar) to dissuade India in return.

If India decides to escalate clashes by attacking other Pakistani cities than PAF will come into play* and Pakistan Army will introduce cruise missiles and TBMs in the mix to soften Indian defenses across the border.

*Jet fighters can/will take cues from sophisticated AEW&C aircraft of PAF to engage opposing jet fighters of IAF in the BVR regime. And even if it comes down to WVR combat situations, skills of Pakistani pilots is a topic in itself. PAF is well-equipped and well-maintained for regional challenges in the present.

IAF can damage PAF in aerial clashes but at a great cost to its assets and operational capacity in the present.

Q1: Is India willing to bear heavy losses of IAF in its efforts to bomb Pakistani cities?
Q2: You also mentioned INS Arihant but is India willing to risk nuclear war with Pakistan?

In either case, be prepared to take heavy losses.

 

[PanzerKiel]

your comparing Israel to pakistan
is that serious,
do you understand they have the best equipped and trained military in the.world bar usa,... and unlimited,supply of Intel.and war material from usa .
you fight israel you fight usa period
their traing western mentality you can never match neither can India.
poor defence

Read my post again, I was referring Israel with regards to your point of strategic depth, not about training, equipment or war material.

 

[Goritoes]

Read my post again, I was referring Israel with regards to your point of strategic depth, not about training, equipment or war material.

You really expect him to be smart enough to understand the point you were making? The jokes on you my friend.

 

[PanzerKiel]

You really expect him to be smart enough to understand the point you were making? The jokes on you my friend.

My bad, but then, I try to remain optimistic, however, in this case, he has already shot his bolt.

 

[Goritoes]

My bad, but then, I try to remain optimistic, however, in this case, he has already shot his bolt.

There is no point in arguing with them, their brain whatever is left of it has been washed with Modi Detergent and they are living in their own fantasy world, if a humiliating defeat on 27th Feb couldn't open their eyes, nothing will.

 

[313ghazi]

This read like some Bakht fan fiction. Who wrote this BS?

 

[TheDebSahab]

The recent student protests against exams were stronger than PTM.

This scenario is taking these cheap twitter warriors and exaggerating them a THOUSAND fold.

This was unrealistic and straight up a waste of time from the get-go.

If anything, the northern people are EAGERLY waiting for a war with India.