MiG Still Hopes for Indian MiG-35 Order

[ViXuyen]

Has Russia ever stated how many units India needs to buy to receive ToT?

 

[sancho]

A new radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) is expected to take the place of the Phazotron Zhuk-M with a slotted antenna and mechanical radar beam scanning, the radar fitted to the Indian MiGs.

The same source "expected" Zhuk AE for the Su 30SMs that Russia recently added as well, which also doesn't happened, because it's one thing what the manufacturer hopes or wants, but another what the MoD/forces wants or can do (same case as the EF with Captor-E AESA)! The Zhuk AE was developed only in a premature version and basic tests were made, the final development and serial production however depends on a useful number of orders, which is not available so far. Even for the Mig 35 that Russian Air Force is considering now, the evaluation is for both radars, Zhuk M or AE, because the earlier offers a lot of commonality to their SMT and UPG fleets, the latter requirers fundings and orders.

Radars for India and other customers

India is perhaps the largest export customer of Russia’s leading radar design house Phazotron-NIIR. General Designer Yuri Guskov told Russia & CIS Observer about the corporation’s on-going Indian contracts and new development programs...

...What are your plans for the Zhuk-AE radar?

— We continue to improve the Zhuk-AE; Phazotron-NIIR is partially financing the manufacture of a full-scale array but we would also like to receive some funding from customers to complete this work...

...In Bangalore I am planning to suggest to IAF representatives that we upgrade the last two of their MiG-29 fighters with our AESA radar, to demonstrate that the airframe would not require any alterations at all.


...— Would the Russian Air Force like to get this radar?

— Our military would like to have two fighter types, including the AESA-equipped MiG-35 medium fighter. But the industry keeps insisting that this type should be delivered with the Zhuk-M radar.

What the industry wants is fast orders, so if we are talking about the 2013 [state defense] order for example then of course these aircraft should have the tried-and-tested Zhuk-M radar installed. Nevertheless we must still continue to improve EASA technology, build two Zhuk-A-equipped fighters and send them for trials. After the testing is completed in late 2014 we could launch production of AESA-equipped fighters. This would be the most rational solution, but a final decision has not been made yet...

Radars for India and other customers |


The fact that he intents to offer the AESA only for the last 2 of the upgraded IAF Mig29s alone should give you a hint for a possible availability, but he makes it pretty clear for the Russian orders too.

The follow on deals would have included a lot more weapons

Weapons procurements are never included in the fighter deals, but are seperate deals. Only training equipment training rounds, simulators are part of. We even recently added more R27 missiles for the Mig 29UPGs, which wasn't part of the deal, we added a MICA deal, after we fixed the Mirage upgrade, we evaluated SPICE and AASM bomb kits and will fix a deal for the selected SPICE now. So that has nothing to do with the unit cost of the fighter!

specialized land ramp, as mentioned in my link before costs more money, which are not required for a m/m2.

Which again have nothing to do with the unit cost you pay to the manufacturer, but with additional logistics and training costs for IN. You are highly mistaken about the cost included in the system price buddy!

SMT's and M/M2 airframe is the same? Get your facts straight fanboy!

True of course, what I meant was that they use the same base techs (radar, IRST, avionics, refueling system of the SMT and K), weapons and even for us that means 45 x Mig 29K + 63 x Mig 29UPG = 108 fighters, add the Russian Ks, SMTs, UPGs and of other export customers, you have easily twice or more times the number of common systems, than what the 126 x Mig 35 had offered, with completely new developed techs and capabilities (as shown above, that partially are not even in serial production yet). That not only shows that the unit cost of the Mig 35 must be higher, but also the maintenance costs for these systems will be higher, not to mention compared to western fighters.

 

[sancho]

Has Russia ever stated how many units India needs to buy to receive ToT?

Providing ToT is not the issue, their concern is to keep Mikoyan a life, since not even the Russian forces actually wants the Mig fighters anymore. We paid for the development and finishing of the current Mig 29K version and are even the main operator, which made it easier for Russian navy to go for these fighters, since they had to invest less. We even paid the loans of Russian workers at Phazotron once, to keep the Zhuk ME production running, which otherwise might have caused delays in the Mig 29 upgrades.
Russia and it's forces are mainly focusing on Sukhoi now, be it Su 30SMs, 35s, 34s, or Pak Fa in future. The only addition that Mig might has to offer, is the Mig Skat UCAV, but not even that development is cleared yet. So without additional orders, it will be hard for the Russians to keep Mikoyan open and that's why the keep hoping for any further orders from India.
ToT of the Mig 35 is not interesting for India, since it's engine is just an upgrade of an older version, the Zhuk AE not fully developed yet, the avionics often not according Indian requirements and the materials even far behind Indian standards. We already get the best techs Russia can provide via Su 30 MKI and FGFA!

 

[ptltejas]

I think in dog fight Mig-29 is better than any plane in the world. even if su-30 vs mig-29. mig-29 might be better.

 

[Ping]

The same source "expected" Zhuk AE for the Su 30SMs that Russia recently added as well, which also doesn't happened, because it's one thing what the manufacturer hopes or wants, but another what the MoD/forces wants or can do (same case as the EF with Captor-E AESA)! The Zhuk AE was developed only in a premature version and basic tests were made, the final development and serial production however depends on a useful number of orders, which is not available so far. Even for the Mig 35 that Russian Air Force is considering now, the evaluation is for both radars, Zhuk M or AE, because the earlier offers a lot of commonality to their SMT and UPG fleets, the latter requirers fundings and orders.



Radars for India and other customers |


The fact that he intents to offer the AESA only for the last 2 of the upgraded IAF Mig29s alone should give you a hint for a possible availability, but he makes it pretty clear for the Russian orders too.

Stop twisting his words. He said he would offer it for the last 2 aircrafts for evaluation.. not because it is available late. It is indeed available now since he clearly says:
The Zhuk-AE AESA radar, which we proposed as part of Russia’s bid in the Indian MMRCA tender in 2010, is a production item. This means there would be no critical issues that could affect series production.

The 2014 testing is for the Russian Airforce IF they place the order. Since the Russian Air Force requirements may be more than what the radar currently offers.

Weapons procurements are never included in the fighter deals, but are seperate deals. Only training equipment training rounds, simulators are part of. We even recently added more R27 missiles for the Mig 29UPGs, which wasn't part of the deal, we added a MICA deal, after we fixed the Mirage upgrade, we evaluated SPICE and AASM bomb kits and will fix a deal for the selected SPICE now. So that has nothing to do with the unit cost of the fighter!

Maybe for western contracts weapons but unlike the over priced mica deal, there never has been a separate deal for the R-77 or the R-27. The R-27 deal was for LESS THAN A MILLION DOLLARS. That deal is clearly an emergency purchase since you cant get a lot of missiles with less than a million dollars.

Which again have nothing to do with the unit cost you pay to the manufacturer, but with additional logistics and training costs for IN. You are highly mistaken about the cost included in the system price buddy!

But that cost comes with the deal!! And it gets included as a MiG-29K cost. These costs are non existent for the MiG-35. The MiG_29K costed only 32 million dollars in 2004! But the average cost including specialized naval training and probably weapons too raised the cost to 46.3 million dollars.

True of course, what I meant was that they use the same base techs (radar, IRST, avionics, refueling system of the SMT and K), weapons and even for us that means 45 x Mig 29K + 63 x Mig 29UPG = 108 fighters, add the Russian Ks, SMTs, UPGs and of other export customers, you have easily twice or more times the number of common systems, than what the 126 x Mig 35 had offered, with completely new developed techs and capabilities (as shown above, that partially are not even in serial production yet). That not only shows that the unit cost of the Mig 35 must be higher, but also the maintenance costs for these systems will be higher, not to mention compared to western fighters.

MiG-29K and the MiG-35 were derived from the same Airframe. How's that for communality? SMT is a different airframe. The spares cost would be much cheaper knowing that 35 and 29K have lot of commonality right from engine to airframe.


In the end, it is a hell of a lot cheaper than ripoff-ale. And its weapons.. oh my god.. i dont even want to go into that. Mica deal still burns like a volcano for every rational Indian. I shudder to think what the cost of a Meteor will be! And that too in the initial stages the price will be though the roof!! The number of Meteor carried may be even more costlier than the fuckiing jet!


Save the Money and spend it on Social welfare and infrastrusture. India does not need such expensive shyt to protect creaking infrastructure throughout the country, when millions of tonnes of foods is geting rotten because Govt doesnt have money to construct sheds for them!
If we buy this ripoff-ale, its like constructing a gold door to protect everything rotting inside.