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Mig 29K vs Rafale-M - which one should Indian Navy opt for ? Source: http:

But the Russian themselves are retiring them in favour of Mig 29. The aircraft is too big, and as before, we need to find an western avionics to be able to fit on it, moreover i doubt our AC can filed less no of aircraft of Su 33, compared to Mig 29. U would know that.

If we can customize avionics on Su-30 mki, we can do the same on Su-33. But I agree with rest of your post. Meanwhile PLAN have adopted J-15 (xerox copy of Su-33)
 
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If we can customize avionics on Su-30 mki, we can do the same on Su-33. But I agree with rest of your post. Meanwhile PLAN have adopted J-15 (xerox copy of Su-33)

The PLAN have no other option. They have to recycle what they have, and yet they have done it good, yet its capabilities, radar suite etc is unknown.
The Russians might have given everything to them for money.
 
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1.) If the Russian opt for a Naval version, then yes.
2.) F 35? No. Never. Too many strings, too much dependence etc.... to expensive.
3.) Lets see what gonna happen with the N-LCA.... its a light weight fighter... I guess the Navy will need heavier multi role fighters with longer range. I bet there will be a Naval MMRCA contest.
1.Russia needs 5g naval platform to secure its naval power . PAKFA currently fulfills the need of Russia . Even if Russia doesnt go for it we will have it unless we go for F35 .
2.F18 for MRCA was once thought to be joke . You cannot absolutely deny the possibility of F35 for IN . With the growing relationship between India and US , we might see many offers from US in future . If we couldnt get NPAKFA/NAMCA in time F35 would be the obvious choice that will be left , you will not go for Rafale or any other 4g fighter after a decade(Except NLCA) .
3.NLCA would primarily play the role of point defence fighter ie securing carrier while Mig29K will be used for attack . With IN already having many Mig29Ks it might take much time for us to go for Next ACC , so we will have many options left and we will go for 5g aircrafts for our future carriers .
 
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1.) If the Russian opt for a Naval version, then yes.
2.) F 35? No. Never. Too many strings, too much dependence etc.... to expensive.
3.) Lets see what gonna happen with the N-LCA.... its a light weight fighter... I guess the Navy will need heavier multi role fighters with longer range. I bet there will be a Naval MMRCA contest.

Actually It can't be totally ruled out. It depends on IAC 2. If its is CATOBAR then there is very likely chance it will be a US fighter on IAC 2. Since I don't think anyone else has/can give us that Technology. And considering the Business Men Americans are they are going to maximize this deal.

Also F 35 on IAC 2 will to a large extent depend on China's Air Craft Carrier developments. If the Chinese put a 5th Gen fighter on their future Aircraft Carrier then the IN can't keep its eyes closed to that. In that case F-35 is very likely since there is no plans for N-PAKFA
 
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1.Russia needs 5g naval platform to secure its naval power . PAKFA currently fulfills the need of Russia . Even if Russia doesnt go for it we will have it unless we go for F35 .
2.F18 for MRCA was once thought to be joke . You cannot absolutely deny the possibility of F35 for IN . With the growing relationship between India and US , we might see many offers from US in future . If we couldnt get NPAKFA/NAMCA in time F35 would be the obvious choice that will be left , you will not go for Rafale or any other 4g fighter after a decade(Except NLCA) .
3.NLCA would primarily play the role of point defence fighter ie securing carrier while Mig29K will be used for attack . With IN already having many Mig29Ks it might take much time for us to go for Next ACC , so we will have many options left and we will go for 5g aircrafts for our future carriers .

1.) Right now its not 100% whether the Russian will develop a Naval variant, but I also think they will do it for their future carriers.
2.) Why should India accept the strings and other restrictions for a 5th gen fighter, when we did not even accepted the terms for navigation equipment for the C130Js? Why should we go for a complete new type of 5th gen fighter when we have a 5th gen fighter which is being manufactured in India with 100% ToT etc?
And why would someone reject a Rafale-M in the next decade, but put a LCA into service instead which is far behind the Rafale?
Why do people think that everyone will use 5th gen fighters in 10 years? Thats nonsense, 4th gen fighter will form the bulk of any AF even in 10 years as well (maybe not the US). And the Rafale is the best 4.5 gen fighter available.

3.) ".NLCA would primarily play the role of point defence fighter ie securing carrier while Mig29K will be used for attack"

Source please, I never heard about such a concept on carriers. Why waste limited space for point defence fighters, if you have multi role fighters like the Migs?
 
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Actually It can't be totally ruled out. It depends on IAC 2. If its is CATOBAR then there is very likely chance it will be a US fighter on IAC 2. Since I don't think anyone else has/can give us that Technology. And considering the Business Men Americans are they are going to maximize this deal.

Also F 35 on IAC 2 will to a large extent depend on China's Air Craft Carrier developments. If the Chinese put a 5th Gen fighter on their future Aircraft Carrier then the IN can't keep its eyes closed to that. In that case F-35 is very likely since there is no plans for N-PAKFA

The Chinese are as far away from putting an 5th gen fighter on an ACC as the Russians. They are still new to carrier ops. And the Russians are already designing new super carrier which will likely further the development of the N-Pak FA.
And considering that we will build those fighters in India anyways with knowing every aspect of it since we are paying 50 billion USD for development, it will only make sense to go got them.


And considering the F 35: Do you really want to be your entire carrier air wing dependent on the US ?

This is the best the US can offer. It will come with endless strings attached to it. And even the strings of the communication equipment on the C130Js were too much for us and thus we rejected it. What do you think will we say to the conditions when we want to buy a state of the art 5th gen stealth fighter?

Not to mention the financial aspects of buying and putting an aircraft into service that will be completely new to India unlike the Russian 5th gen fighter which will be manufactured in India anyways.
 
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The Chinese are as far away from putting an 5th gen fighter on an ACC as the Russians. They are still new to carrier ops. And the Russians are already designing new super carrier which will likely further the development of the N-Pak FA.
And considering that we will build those fighters in India anyways with knowing every aspect of it since we are paying 50 billion USD for development, it will only make sense to go got them.


And considering the F 35: Do you really want to be your entire carrier air wing dependent on the US ?

This is the best the US can offer. It will come with endless strings attached to it. And even the strings of the communication equipment on the C130Js were too much for us and thus we rejected it. What do you think will we say to the conditions when we want to buy a state of the art 5th gen stealth fighter?

Not to mention the financial aspects of buying and putting an aircraft into service that will be completely new to India unlike the Russian 5th gen fighter which will be manufactured in India anyways.

It is not a question of what I want. What I want is N-AMCA. Not PAKFA nor F - 35. But I would be ignoring geo political reality if I say that F-35 will never be considered.

Regarding Chinese they were also years away from putting an aircraft on their Casino. But now they have a squadron on that Casino. The biggest mistake we will make is underestimating the Chinese. They have put their head down and worked hard and have achieved enough success that is going to create flutters in the Naval Command. I expect them to put the their Stealth Fighter on their next aircraft carrier. Atleast for Trials if not fully operational. They already have experience on carrier fighter thanks to J-15. So it won't take too much time for them to put their functional 5th Gen fighter on the Carrier. The concepts are the same for 4 th and 5 th Gen fighter to move from land based to carrier based fighter. What they may not have in the next decade is a CATOBAR carrier. Also the Russian super carrier is still in the Air. There is no concrete funding nor there is funding for N-PAKFA. Also Russia doens't have CATOBAR technolgoy.

These are enough reasons to make the Navy seriously consider F-35. Also the fact they have already a US platform P8I which is our main anti sub platform shows that atleast Navy is not against depending to Uncle Sam for main fire power unlike IAF.
 
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It is not a question of what I want. What I want is N-AMCA. Not PAKFA nor F - 35. But I would be ignoring geo political reality if I say that F-35 will never be considered.

Regarding Chinese they were also years away from putting an aircraft on their Casino. But now they have a squadron on that Casino. The biggest mistake we will make is underestimating the Chinese. They have put their head down and worked hard and have achieved enough success that is going to create flutters in the Naval Command. I expect them to put the their Stealth Fighter on their next aircraft carrier. Atleast for Trials if not fully operational. They already have experience on carrier fighter thanks to J-15. So it won't take too much time for them to put their functional 5th Gen fighter on the Carrier. The concepts are the same for 4 th and 5 th Gen fighter to move from land based to carrier based fighter. What they may not have in the next decade is a CATOBAR carrier. Also the Russian super carrier is still in the Air. There is no concrete funding nor there is funding for N-PAKFA. Also Russia doens't have CATOBAR technolgoy.

These are enough reasons to make the Navy seriously consider F-35. Also the fact they have already a US platform P8I which is our main anti sub platform shows that atleast Navy is not against depending to Uncle Sam for main fire power unlike IAF.
^^you are waiting for a N-AMCA? :D Well good luck for that

Mastering ACC ops takes years of training and experience. Furthermore the US is Chinas main concern, not the Indian Navy. And on what information is your expectation based that they will use a stealth fighter on their next carrier (even for trials) which will come in a couple of years? They have not even inducted the land versions of their 5th gen fighters.



A carrier based variant of a normal fighter is much more than a plane with foldable wings and arrestor hook.

And the Russians are already in the design process of their new nuke carriers:
Russia is developing a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

They will surely consider a naval variant of the Pak-Fa and it would be beneficial for both sides if India invests money into this project as well.
And seriously, if India wants to build a CATOBAR carrier, you think that the Russians wont master it? o_O

But my guess is that the navy will rather consider to go for 4.5 gen fighters like the Rafale. But currently the Navy has more urgent needs anyways.

Concerning the P8Is, they heavily use Indian communication equipment like the C130Js because India does not want to accept the US conditions.

But the problem with these aircraft are that they will be heavily dependent on US support with spare parts etc etc...
Remember the nation which first cried for sanctions against India a decade ago? One of the reasons why Tejas is still not in service. Or remember which nation sent nuclear carrier to attack India?

And besides, they wont even allow us to fit non US weapons on the P8Is (the Brahmos for instance).
 
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India should invest in its navy

Well we are doing it on a decent pace now^^

From wiki:

Future of the Indian Navy [edit]

Overview [edit]
Indian Navy has decided to increase its spending by around 75 per cent in the current fiscal 2012–2013. With an overall hike in the defence budget of 17 per cent, Indian navy has been allocated $4.77 billion which is roughly $2 billion more than the allocation for 2011–2012. The increase in expenditure will be utilised to procure several frigates and destroyers, speed up key projects and increase its strategic reach in the Indian Ocean region.[154] By the end of the 14th Plan (2027), the Indian Navy expects to have "over 150 ships and close to 500 aircraft and helicopters". In addition to the existing mission of securing both sea flanks in the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian sea, the navy would be able to "respond to emergent situations far away from the main land". Marine assault capabilities will be beefed by setting up a new amphibious warfare facility at Kakinada, Andhra Pradesh.[155] The Indian Navy has initiated Phase II expansion of INS Kadamba, the third largest naval base, near Karwar. Phase II will involve expansion of the berthing facilities to accommodate 40 more front-line warships, including the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, tugs and barges, raise manpower to 300 officers and around 2,500 sailors, and build a naval air station with a 6,000-foot runway. This is to be followed by Phase IIA and IIB, at the end of which INS Kadamba will be able to base 50 front-line warships.
Modernisation and future orders [edit]


INS Vikramaditya


LCA Tejas developed by India.
The Indian Navy is currently undergoing a 15-year modernisation plan in an attempt to replace older in service equipment.[156] In 2004, India bought the Russian aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov for the equivalent of US$1.5 billion. It cost an additional US$1.5 billion to overhaul the vessel and refit it entirely with new electronic, weapon systems ans sensors. The vessel is currently expected to join the Indian Navy at some point in 2013 commissioned as INS Vikramaditya. As part of the project a further US$700 million was spent on the purchase of 12 single-seat MiG-29K and four dual-seat MiG-29KUB fighters and six Kamov-31 maritime helicopters to operate from the new carrier. Additional elements of the project are training facilities for pilots and technical staff, delivery of simulators and spare parts, and establishment and maintenance of Indian Navy facilities. Upgrades to Vikramaditya include the removing of missile silos from the carrier foredeck to make way for a 14.3-degree ski-jump.[157]
In April 2007, India began construction of the first of two Vikrant class Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC). The first vessel will displace 40,000 tonnes and is to be named INS Vikrant. She will cost of US$800 million and operate around 30 aircraft including, Naval LCA and MiG-29K fighters[158] as well as, HAL Dhruv, Ka-31, and Sea King Mk.42 helicopters. The carrier is being constructed by state-run Cochin Shipyard Limited.[159] The carrier was originally expected to be commissioned by around 2012 or 13, however construction has been delayed by 3 to 4 years, and the carrier is now expected to be commissioned by 2017 or perhaps 2018.[160] The delay in the construction schedule has impacted the construction schedule of IAC-II as well.[161] The second of the Indigenous Aircraft Carriers has not been ordered, but current plans are for it to be in the region of 65,000 tones if ordered is expected to be delivered to the Navy by around 2025. The aim is to have a total of three aircraft carriers in service, with two fully operational carriers and the third in refit. This aim will increase the overall effectiveness of the Indian Navy.[162] The long term plan was recently revealed by the Navy and shows a road-map to a blue-water navy with six aircraft carriers in service.[163]
Bids have been floated for eight mine countermeasure vessels (MCMVs), to replace the Pondicherry class ocean minesweepers in service. Six of the craft will be produced at Goa shipyard under transfer of technology.[164]
In November 2011, India's Defence Acquisition Council was looking for induction of large amphibious ships which they refer to as Multi-Role Support Vessel. It's speculated that they accordingly issued an international RFP for up to 4 amphibious operation vessels (most probably LHDs) with significant capability to carry Helicopters and troops. First the Indigenous Shipyards were consulted but since they have no experience in developing such type of vessels and had no design to propose, Indian government expects candidates from foreign allies.[165][166]
The Indian Navy has signed a deal with Boeing to supply twelve P-8 Poseidon Anti Submarine Warfare/Maritime Surveillance Aircraft.[167] The first aircraft was delivered on 21 December 2012. Boeing will hand over another two in 2013 and the remaining five by 2015. Also there are plans to induct four AEW&C aircraft that will be based on carriers.[168] The RFP (request for proposal) for six MRMR aircraft with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities was issued on 11 July 2008. The contract is expected to be signed in 2011 and deliveries to begin by 2012/2013. The Navy is also planning to purchase more UAVs.[169] The Indian Navy has issued a tender for procurement of 16, multi-role naval helicopters to AgustaWestland, EADS and Sikorsky. The order is likely to grow to around 60 helicopters. The helicopters will be equipped with anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare equipment including missiles and torpedoes, and also be capable of being in-flight refuelling. The type will operate from both naval vessels and land bases.[170]
Indian Navy is also envisaging a new 'Safety Organisation' to enhance safe operations of its warships, nuclear submarines and aircraft in view of its planned increase in fleet strength over the next
 
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But the VIKY and IAC-1 would only be able to carry a handful of them as compared to 16-25+ MIG-29Ks

Why? On deck you can park pretty much as many Su 33s as Mig 29s I guess, since both have folding wings. The internal size would be a bigger problem.

But the Russian themselves are retiring them in favour of Mig 29. The aircraft is too big, and as before, we need to find an western avionics to be able to fit on it, moreover i doubt our AC can filed less no of aircraft of Su 33, compared to Mig 29. U would know that.

The Russians are replacing them only because it's too costly to upgrade them, the Mig 29 is only a stopgap for them, their aim is naval Pak Fa:

4350928300_907310217d.jpg

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-confiremd-news-russian-media.html#post674576

What kind of avionics do you mean?
 
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@sancho naval fighters are not kept on deck permanently and are rotated to internal hangars routinely to protect the fighters from corrosion and the elements as well as to undergo maintenance and the like . Usually, only the alert-fighters (4-6 for the IN) are kept on deck constantly along with any fighters destined to fly that day for training missions and the like. The rest will be kept in the hangers.

This is where the SU-33 would have a MASSIVE issue (no pun intended!).
 
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@sancho naval fighters are not kept on deck permanently and are rotated to internal hangars routinely to protect the fighters from corrosion and the elements as well as to undergo maintenance and the like .

Rotating means, the same number of fighters will be changed, so that is not an issue.

Usually, only the alert-fighters (4-6 for the IN) are kept on deck constantly along with any fighters destined to fly that day for training missions and the like. The rest will be kept in the hangers.

This is where the SU-33 would have a MASSIVE issue (no pun intended!).

That's not correct, the Russian carriers always have Flankers on deck, the French also strike fighters and so on. The parking deck is needed to carry a useful number of aircrafts. Same goes for LHDs like the Wasp class, which has a dedicated parking deck for helicopters too.
So if the carrier is big enough to operate Flanker sized fighters, it is no issue to operate them, but ours wasn't yet and in future catapults will be the main aim I guess.
 
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^^you are waiting for a N-AMCA? :D Well good luck for that

Mastering ACC ops takes years of training and experience. Furthermore the US is Chinas main concern, not the Indian Navy. And on what information is your expectation based that they will use a stealth fighter on their next carrier (even for trials) which will come in a couple of years? They have not even inducted the land versions of their 5th gen fighters.



A carrier based variant of a normal fighter is much more than a plane with foldable wings and arrestor hook.

And the Russians are already in the design process of their new nuke carriers:
Russia is developing a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video

They will surely consider a naval variant of the Pak-Fa and it would be beneficial for both sides if India invests money into this project as well.
And seriously, if India wants to build a CATOBAR carrier, you think that the Russians wont master it? o_O

But my guess is that the navy will rather consider to go for 4.5 gen fighters like the Rafale. But currently the Navy has more urgent needs anyways.

Concerning the P8Is, they heavily use Indian communication equipment like the C130Js because India does not want to accept the US conditions.

But the problem with these aircraft are that they will be heavily dependent on US support with spare parts etc etc...
Remember the nation which first cried for sanctions against India a decade ago? One of the reasons why Tejas is still not in service. Or remember which nation sent nuclear carrier to attack India?

And besides, they wont even allow us to fit non US weapons on the P8Is (the Brahmos for instance).

:D I believe in Dreaming Big.

Regarding Chinas concern is US. That won't stop India from being concerned about China. Actually its very similar to China-India-Pakistan triangle. We say we are competing with China. But that doesn't stop Pakistanis from Arming themselves to the teeth in spite of having an economy in the gutters.

Regarding CATOBAR the russians haven't been able to build them for the last 30-40 years and there is no reason to suggest that they are even interested in it. Had it been so easy the French wouldn't have gone to the US for it. They would have developed it on their own. So we can blow it in jest but the reality is no other country as of now can give India this technology except US. This is a very important fact to note considering the IN is on record saying the IAC 2 will be CATOBAR.

Also US planes are no big deal. Remember F 16 and F 18 were not rejected based on the fact they were Americans. They lost Technically. So that is no issue at all. If Comm equipments are a problem and India is willing to shell out 10 Billion dollars (approx number) for CATOBAR/EMALS and 50 F-35 I don't think Americans will have any problems. Since they didn't have an issue with P8-I.
 
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:D I believe in Dreaming Big.

Regarding Chinas concern is US. That won't stop India from being concerned about China. Actually its very similar to China-India-Pakistan triangle. We say we are competing with China. But that doesn't stop Pakistanis from Arming themselves to the teeth in spite of having an economy in the gutters.

Regarding CATOBAR the russians haven't been able to build them for the last 30-40 years and there is no reason to suggest that they are even interested in it. Had it been so easy the French wouldn't have gone to the US for it. They would have developed it on their own. So we can blow it in jest but the reality is no other country as of now can give India this technology except US. This is a very important fact to note considering the IN is on record saying the IAC 2 will be CATOBAR.

Also US planes are no big deal. Remember F 16 and F 18 were not rejected based on the fact they were Americans. They lost Technically. So that is no issue at all. If Comm equipments are a problem and India is willing to shell out 10 Billion dollars (approx number) for CATOBAR/EMALS and 50 F-35 I don't think Americans will have any problems. Since they didn't have an issue with P8-I.

The Russians did not build anything for 20 years because they had no money. Actually they started to build a CATOBAR super carrier, but they stopped it after running out of money at the end of the USSR.

And concerning the MMRCA trials: The first round was purely about technological aspects, it was the IAFs call. The next rounds were the MoDs decisions, and there they included political, financial and other aspects, including reliability of the partner, availability of ToT, spare parts etc etc

They dont even want to share the Javelin technology, how will they be able to share 5th gen fighter technology to India if they cannot share technology for ATGMs? AFAIK they were even reluctant to sell to NATO partners -_-

To the P8Is: Again, they are using mostly Indian made communication equipment! And any weapons you want to use on them HAVE TO BE US MADE! Which is something that might be somehow manageable for an ASW aircraft, but not for the main back bone of an entire ACC air wing ;)
 
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The Russians did not build anything for 20 years because they had no money. Actually they started to build a CATOBAR super carrier, but they stopped it after running out of money at the end of the USSR.

And concerning the MMRCA trials: The first round was purely about technological aspects, it was the IAFs call. The next rounds were the MoDs decisions, and there they included political, financial and other aspects, including reliability of the partner, availability of ToT, spare parts etc etc

They dont even want to share the Javelin technology, how will they be able to share 5th gen fighter technology to India if they cannot share technology for ATGMs? AFAIK they were even reluctant to sell to NATO partners -_-

To the P8Is: Again, they are using mostly Indian made communication equipment! And any weapons you want to use on them HAVE TO BE US MADE! Which is something that might be somehow manageable for an ASW aircraft, but not for the main back bone of an entire ACC air wing ;)

See these are all subjective points. It will all depend on the Navy's threat perception, What is available in market, by whom, and what russians can build. At the end of the day the China factor is very important.

So my main point was that F-35 can't be discounted. It is in the minds of the Naval Commanders. Now if we get a better offer from Russians we will go with that else F-35 has a good chance.
 
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