Mid life upgrade of Zulfiqar class frigates

[arslank03]

Incorrect, there had to be urgency. The money was not there for arming already available ships with already available missiles ?? That's not a sound argument. Why I feel, we are just doing arguments for the sake of arguments. Btw, When the first yarmooks were inducted, not long ago India had bombed Balakot and PAF had striked back. PAF urgently aquired J-10Cs, not a genius but even a common feeling would have sensed that india may have attempted again to level the score that time. Often war does not come announced. Did you or me knew about 26h Feb 2019 would happen, Or did we knew about Kargil? (though it was our General's own misadventure) but peace must never be taken as granted. and ofcourse we agree PN's punch is subs. Cheers

The money was not there for arming already available ships with already available missiles ??

That is absolutely correct, I'm not sure if you noticed, but Yarmooks are getting equipment from here and there, defensive equipment is being stripped from Tariqs and then installed onto them.

Alongside this, missile integration costs are likely to be in the tens of millions, it is not as simple as "just put the containers there and you're ready to go".

On top of this, the most glaring example of a lack of funds is the fact that the launch of pns Tariq was literally delayed due to lack of funds, forgetting readily available missiles, the ship was complete and sitting on the ramp, waiting for a certain launch date. Why? Because no $.

Btw, When the first yarmooks were inducted

The induction of PNS Yarmook was 1 year and 5 months post balakot...

PAF urgently aquired J-10Cs, not a genius but even a common feeling would have sensed that india may have attempted again to level the score that time.

The PAF had not urgently acquired J10C's, this was a many year-long thing, motivated by the induction of Indian Rafales and likely had very little to do with balakot and alot more to do with the PAF needing to maintain some level of parity.

Did you or me knew about 26h Feb 2019 would happen

You and me are not the militaries or the governments. War generally does not come unannounced, generally, there are clear signals and indicators of a build up, any half decent intel agency will see some movement and start prep.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

Should do more Joint Ventures with China to make a strong Navy.

We should buy more advanced Frigates and submarines, nuclear submarines from China.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

The PAF had not urgently acquired J10C's, this was a many year-long thing, motivated by the induction of Indian Rafales and likely had very little to do with balakot and alot more to do with the PAF needing to maintain some level of parity.

Nope. Dear, PAF already knew for a long time that Rafales are signed up by IAF and so india will induct those. Rafales deal was signed in 2016. There wasn't any visible urgency back than by PAF because there was no skirmish and shooting of the planes and no one imagined such escalation in near future. The fact that urgency displayed by the PAF now (post 2019) in whole induction process of J-10Cs was only due to the factor that India did a massive escalation by crossing LOC. Ofcourse PAF inducted to maintain parity. Therefore the "urgency" to induct is directly linked to post-balakot scenario. According to some reports PAF signed agreement for acquiring J-10Cs in June 25, 2021.

I will keep my view that ideally when a force already had ordered 2 yarmook ships and they were delivered as well in time. Those were the times when none of Type-54As were added into the fleet and those were the times with high tensions with india (whether you agree or not, Post balakot situation is not the same, only with passage of time situation is relaxing a bit). Then urgency should have had felt to make use of those available platforms. Funds issue is always there with Pak but its hard to digest that they didn't had any resources to arm Yarmooks, I mean eventually they had to arm those anyways. So why not do it in time when needed most. We in Pakistan lack in-time decisions everywhere. Its just not the forces, whole govt / public sector displays volumes of it. Swift readiness should be focused when you have smaller force than adversary (Which PAF had displayed recently the new platform is not just aquired, fully armed but also participating in exerices both local and foreign). War build up may be noticed but you may never get enough time for war preparations.

 

[HerbertPervert]

Should do more Joint Ventures with China to make a strong Navy.

We should buy more advanced Frigates and submarines, nuclear submarines from China.

No, joint ventures and technology transfer have been useless for Pakistan.

Pakistan instead should fund and assist local startup defense contractors that can engage in R&D towards "low-hanging fruits" or easily achievable goals such as UAV, loitering munitions, Radars, sensors, EW, robotics, naval drones.

Company A designs & manufactures UAVs and loitering munitions. Company B designs & manufactures sensors and EW equipment. Company C manufactures naval drones like USV and UUV. No overlap with another's domain, so they can grow without local competition.

These goals are achievable by local engineers & academia. Linkages are created between these companies and universities like NUST. Companies should be given freedom to sell to foreign buyers.

As a requirement for receiving funding, these companies must go public on stock exchange once certain revenue threshold is reached. They must also recruit engineers from the top engineering schools.

As these companies will grow, they can expand into building manned aircraft, naval vessels, missiles, large radars, etc.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

No, joint ventures and technology transfer have been useless for Pakistan.

Pakistan instead should fund and assist local startup defense contractors that can engage in R&D towards "low-hanging fruits" or easily achievable goals such as UAV, loitering munitions, Radars, sensors, EW, robotics, naval drones.

Company A designs & manufactures UAVs and loitering munitions. Company B designs & manufactures sensors and EW equipment. Company C manufactures naval drones like USV and UUV. No overlap with another's domain, so they can grow without local competition.

These goals are achievable by local engineers & academia. Linkages are created between these companies and universities like NUST. Companies should be given freedom to sell to foreign buyers.

As a requirement for receiving funding, these companies must go public on stock exchange once certain revenue threshold is reached. They must also recruit engineers from the top engineering schools.

As these companies will grow, they can expand into building manned aircraft, naval vessels, missiles, large radars, etc.

Ummm... do you even know what you are talking about?

JF-17s, Al-Khalid Tank, Zulfiqar frigates have all been Joint Ventures between Pakistan and China.

lol you don't know crap. Please educate yourself first before posting. lol.

China should now build Advanced Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan to get rid of the bijli or electricity problem.

China should build Generation 4 Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan, to empower the country.

 

[FuturePAF]

You are all seemingly forgetting that the actual tender outlined by the PN included all of this. It was for a jet-powered LRMPA that can take on ISR, AEW etc.

Its very clear the PN will seek MPA based AEW like they did with the p3 e2c hybrid they wanted to buy

We read a lot and then forget a lot. Which is why in the moment many proposed/supported (don’t remember which came first) the Embraer on this forum sometime ago. It’s large enough to do it all with the right configuration, and at the d same time.

The only caveat for saying an MPA only version should be procured for the first few batches was because we thought the budget couldn’t fund a full spec platform.

In fact, I have been thinking about a song for the Sea Sultan I was hoping @Trailer23 would use to make a video about the sea sultan, and it fits the Brazilian theme. The lyrics fit the mission, and there is even a line which sounds the enemy saying “Thooba Thooba” as I imagine a PN Sea Sultan dropping Torpedos on an IN submarine.

 

[time pass]

See, you and me would like to see such upgrades and people like us in defence forums remain excited about such things but PN does not think like that. Their priorities are bit different.

I give you an example with the background, when we did not had received 4 Type-54A/P frigates, the fleet was really depleted. We badly needed to equip whatever we could on available hulls but even in such times navy didn't do anything. How we can expect Navy to do such massive armament upgrades when they have already received much more capable ships and going to receive further more. Before Type-54As, We only had 4 F-22Ps, 1 OHP and 2 Yarmooks in large platforms with some endurance. The couple of type-21s had no capability - As I recall on induction of F-22P, than naval chief had said one F-22P is more capable than whole fleet of Type-21s. PN didn't even bothered to arm its first 2 Yarmooks with Harbahs when it really needed most of its available hulls. This is the background on which I say its highly unlikely to see PN carrying out massive upgrades on earlier hulls now. Before F-22Ps, We may see all 4 yarmooks will be armed but that will also take a lot of time.

PN think of not just fighting arm but all of its branches, its residential areas, its medical facilities, the PMSA, its force welfare, the pensions and perhaps is more interested in number of hulls to assign the crew rather than heavily arming each ship. The finance / resource allocation is main issue.

In the warships usually the weapon suits & sensors cost way more than the hulls. A 2500 ton ship without any of weapon suits, sensors, ew, combat systems may cost only 60 - 80 mil dollars. But on average a 2500 ton fully armed corvette with modern western weapon systems & sensors may cost upto 300 - 400 million dollars. So, weapons / sensors drives the cost. Perhaps navy is looking for more number of platforms which are relatively lightly armed than fewer but heavily armed platforms.

Your post suggests that you are a PN advisor, doesn't it?

Second, the discussion of the suggested weapon package for F22Ps is derailed by your posts; it would be better to let others analyse the technical aspects and application possibilities of various weapon packages and sensor equipment.

 

[time pass]

View attachment 951644

Seeing the space on the deck (pic shared by Ghazi52), following weapons package would be ideal for upcoming MLU...

• 16/24 VLS - CAMM-ER (if not MR) in place of FM90
• Should have 3x6 AshM (CM-302) instead of 2x4 (CM802)
• Replace CIWS 730 with 1130 on both sides of hanger
• 16 missile salvo of HHQ-10 on top of the hangar
• Replace YU-7 in stead of ET-52C torpedo in 2x3 launcher

With an eye towards the introduction of the aforementioned weapon systems, a combination of Chinese, Turkish, and European sensors, radars, and processing systems will be used??

Let's talk about it .... @arslank03 @TOPGUN @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others who have extensive knowledge.

We apologies that a pseudo intellectual caused everything to get off track.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Ummm... do you even know what you are talking about?

JF-17s, Al-Khalid Tank, Zulfiqar frigates have all been Joint Ventures between Pakistan and China.

lol you don't know crap. Please educate yourself first before posting. lol.

China should now build Advanced Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan to get rid of the bijli or electricity problem.

China should build Generation 4 Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan, to empower the country.

Mere bhai ap uder Islamic dressing wale topics per focus kia kro.ye cheezen ap ke bass ki baat nahi.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Your post suggests that you are a PN advisor, doesn't it?

Second, the discussion of the suggested weapon package for F22Ps is derailed by your posts; it would be better to let others analyse the technical aspects and application possibilities of various weapon packages and sensor equipment.

LOL! nope I retired from that post long ago. Now I see you are taking care of that post much better ;-)

Let's talk about it .... @arslank03 @TOPGUN @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and others who have extensive knowledge.

We apologies that a pseudo intellectual caused everything to get off track.

Yep. Sorry to disturb your beautiful wishlist. Please carry on. BTW, it wasn't me exactly who derailed it off-topic. I only suggested initially that only HHQ-10 maybe the only upgrade I see. Let's have a right to own our own opinions without calling em psuedo-whatever. People also have right to explain their own views. I agree to some point of @arslank03 but disagree on some. If we all are talking about PN than according to your intellectual logic we all are "advisors" to the PN. Take a chill pill buddy.

 

[truthseeker2010]

China should now build Advanced Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan to get rid of the bijli or electricity problem.

China should build Generation 4 Nuclear Reactors in Pakistan, to empower the country.

Care to tell why should china do that when u can't even afford the current power plants and are being underutilised?

 

[time pass]

LOL! nope I retired from that post long ago. Now I see you are taking care of that post much better ;-)

It appears that you are a helpless man, so I won't bother to react so as to lower myself to your level in order to avoid taking this discussion off track.

Yep. Sorry to disturb your beautiful wishlist. Please carry on. BTW, it wasn't me exactly who derailed it off-topic. I only suggested initially that only HHQ-10 maybe the only upgrade I see. Let's have a right to own our own opinions without calling em psuedo-whatever. People also have right to explain their own views. I agree to some point of @arslank03 but disagree on some. If we all are talking about PN than according to your intellectual logic we all are "advisors" to the PN. Take a chill pill buddy.

Yup, then you shouldn't be putting words in others mouth & should refrain from adding lengthy and incoherent commentary to every post that quotes someone else.

Hope this will suffice you.

 

[time pass]

@ mods ..... Please tidy up the mess around here to prevent the thread from further derailing.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

It appears that you are a helpless man, so I won't bother to react so as to lower myself to your level in order to avoid taking this discussion off track.

@ Mods, I am okay with his abusive language but its not okay for the decency of the forum.

@time pass
Amazing! Such a weak tiny ego that's saying at one hand you won't lower himself to respond but couldn't help yourself and yet responded with more abuses. Through out the conversation, I never used any harsh word. I used words "buddy" or bro but the words coming out of you or out of frustration are "pseduo-intellectual", "helpless", "lower". I always respect others but one in a rare case is the person who really don't deserve any and that's exactly you. But, I still thank you a lot for my daily dose of entertainment by making a joke out of yourself. When you didn't had a presentable argument you became frustrated. Instead you should have read what I wrote and learned a thing or two (took my precious time to give you overview for your learning). If you would have infact read the conversation than you would know the "experts" opinion on it too. They have pointed out financial issues on my arguments in delayed weaponizing of Yarmooks and you are presenting a super expensive massive list of arsenal for F22Ps. Better to be realistic than getting upset like a child when someone disturbs your wishlist. I was really curious what triggered you? Just me not agreeing fully on your wishlist? It felt like I snatched a candy out of child's hand. Try to be a better listener. On the other note, Names of weapon systems, their ranges, speeds and other parameters that everyone can learn right away that only should not be your only emphasis. Whole lot that goes behind. I will tell you in some relevant thread.

Let's get back to the topic. The topic only went off the rail when you went personal. I think above sweet dosage should be enough as a lesson. Take a chill pill buddy ;-)

 

[time pass]

@ Mods, I am okay with his abusive language but its not okay for the decency of the forum.

@time pass
Amazing! Such a weak tiny ego that's saying at one hand you won't lower himself to respond but couldn't help yourself and yet responded with more abuses. Through out the conversation, I never used any harsh word. I used words "buddy" or bro but the words coming out of you or out of frustration are "pseduo-intellectual", "helpless", "lower". I always respect others but one in a rare case is the person who really don't deserve any and that's exactly you. But, I still thank you a lot for my daily dose of entertainment by making a joke out of yourself. When you didn't had a presentable argument you became frustrated. Instead you should have read what I wrote and learned a thing or two (took my precious time to give you overview for your learning). If you would have infact read the conversation than you would know the "experts" opinion on it too. They have pointed out financial issues on my arguments in delayed weaponizing of Yarmooks and you are presenting a super expensive massive list of arsenal for F22Ps. Better to be realistic than getting upset like a child when someone disturbs your wishlist. I was really curious what triggered you? Just me not agreeing fully on your wishlist? It felt like I snatched a candy out of child's hand. Try to be a better listener. On the other note, Names of weapon systems, their ranges, speeds and other parameters that everyone can learn right away that only should not be your only emphasis. Whole lot that goes behind. I will tell you in some relevant thread.

Let's get back to the topic. The topic only went off the rail when you went personal. I think above sweet dosage should be enough as a lesson. Take a chill pill buddy ;-)