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Mian Atif, PTI and Oriya Maqbol Jaan..

What about matters of deception? Should the State stand idle? It is my opinion and the opinion of the vast majority of the People of Pakistan that the claim(s) of Mirza Ghulaam Ahmed and his followers of being Muslims is/are deception...or a fraud....this represents a negative impact on Citizens...therefore the State has the right to intervene to remove and clear up that deception or fraud....
Ahmadi's claiming to be Muslims presents no physical/material impact on citizens. This so called 'fraud' does not result in loss of material possessions or bodily harm, and therefore the State should not have any interest in legislating or regulating who can or cannot call themselves Muslim.
 
Ahmadi's claiming to be Muslims presents no physical/material impact on citizens. This so called 'fraud' does not result in loss of material possessions or bodily harm, and therefore the State should not have any interest in legislating or regulating who can or cannot call themselves Muslim.
So only material possessions or bodily harm is considered to be "harm"...and this is your opinion....me thinks the opinion of the State is different to yours....
 
So only material possessions or bodily harm is considered to be "harm"...and this is your opinion....me thinks the opinion of the State is different to yours....
The opinion of the State, on this particular issue, is wrong, a travesty, a manifestation of a depraved school of thought. The opinion of the State must be changed and that is precisely why debate on this will continue to occur until the State chooses to join the rest of the civilized world and end institutionalized prejudice, hatred and intolerance towards the Ahmadi community because of their faith.
 
The opinion of the State, on this particular issue, is wrong, a travesty, a manifestation of a depraved school of thought. The opinion of the State must be changed and that is precisely why debate on this will continue to occur until the State chooses to join the rest of the civilized world and end institutionalized prejudice, hatred and intolerance towards the Ahmadi community because of their faith.
Why is the State’s opinion wrong and your opinion correct? Give me something objective.
 
99%Muslim countries recognize Qadiani / Ahmadi as non Muslims, google it.


Is he Einstein?


Reciting Kalima and believing it two different thing, just ask him did he believe in finality of prophethood? ask him what his stance when we Muslims consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed a heretic and dajjal, did he consider us Muslim? @gutto786
Markhor keep living in dreams they don't recognize ahmedis as non Muslim even they were invited in saudia by King Salman at islamic conference. No other islamic country accept what constitution of Pak says.
It's a very bad thing what this Govt did my take is khan surrender himself today he is flattened out. Clergy knock him down very sad day in the history of Pak.
 
Do they call them self Muslims? Do they say that Prophet Mohoammed (PBUH) is not last Prophet while they claim they are in circle of Islam? They can be anything but not Muslims and they have to take back their claim. Called them self anything we don't mind but when you said you are Muslims and attacking our Rasool preaching at the same time make you bully and reaction definitely occurs.

unfortunately i don't know much about qadyanis or what their beliefs are, i have only ever meet 1 qadyani in my life and that too in Australia. All i know about them is that they are declared non-muslims in Pakistan. So i can't answer your question. I was raising my voice for this guy to give our minorities a fair chance to serve their country. Thats it.
 
So only material possessions or bodily harm is considered to be "harm"...and this is your opinion....me thinks the opinion of the State is different to yours....
Why is the State’s opinion wrong and your opinion correct? Give me something objective.
It is wrong because there is absolutely no material/physical harm or threat of harm to the citizens of the State, were the State to stop declaring Ahmadi's 'non-Muslim' and allow them to call themselves whatever they want.
 
Calling me dense while your post as indicator to being one does exhibit certain iota of irony.

Catholic and Christian have bad history. Mormon also has bad history with them. I live in Canada where the sects of Christianity dictincts itself as individuality and even to the point as the label of the church to avoid confusion. There is section for luciferan or Christianity where it prides itself as one distincting itself from the rest of the Christianity.

Whereas in Pakistan tries to Ahmediya as Muslim like the rest of Muslim when Ahmediya should be distincting itself as separate from the rest of the Muslims.

Ahmedhiya community is not Muslim community because finality ends with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as last of the Prophets as mentioned in Holy Quran. It may mean little to the Ahmedhiya community but in Islam, it means a lot and very important to distinct.


Besides, Pakistan follows the same system as the western worlds where each section is given as dictinction and acknowledgement as label of the church to avoid confusion as long as they are given rights to practice their religions their ways.

Catholics are christian too. No catholic is firing or killing a mormon for believing in what they believe (they think of themselves as christians), nor are they stopped from serving on merit. There is no law, in any country, stating that mormons are to disavow Jesus or stop using and associating terms with/of christianity. You continue to prove that you're dense, despite living in a country that proves the total opposite of what you insinuate.

The whole point, if you haven't gathered, is that him being appointed to help the country's economy was and is not related to going about changing the man-made laws of the country. You can continue to believe that ahmedis aren't Muslim. The constitution of Pak can continue to state that ahmedis' aren't Muslim. None of it has anything to do with the best economist serving Pak in an advisory role.
 
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Like what? Examples?


"Sources told The News that Sufi Muhammad’s release was ensured after it was agreed that he would not speak against the state, Constitution and law-enforcement agencies. The government did not challenge the release order."

"Sufi Muhammad was charged with sedition as he had termed the government, Constitution of Pakistan and the judicial system un-Islamic. He had also allegedly criticised the state of Pakistan."

Both seem to have grievances against constitution of Pakistan, based on their religious beliefs.

You may take a position to tell me that how one is a terrorist and other is peaceful oppressed minority, but the fact remains, both of them share very much similar beliefs for daily life.

The Mormons have done almost the exact same thing in the US and the 'heavens' have not fallen on mainstream Christianity. This is not 'identity theft' any more than the Shia & Sunni accusing each other of 'identity theft' In fact the ideology behind Daesh uses the same types of arguments to declare the Shia 'Kafir' & justify their massacre under 'Quran & Sunnah'.

The Mormons, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Martians, Hindus ...... are irrelevant, there is no similarity between them and this case, their actions and solutions don't set a benchmark for us.

Shia and Sunni don't have a case of identity theft, but disagreement on history of Islam after Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him. They have no disagreement over who is the last Messenger, but how the companions of Messenger acted after him. Both are sects.

Massacre under Quran & Sunnah (if Sunnah means actions of Messenger Muhammad only and not the sayings related to him) are easy to debunk, under Quran and Sunnah. Quran doesn't permit killing of any human except in case of war and there are very clear conditions laid down in Quran for that war to happen.

At its core this is a theological dispute and the government has no place adjudicating theological disputes. Mainstream Muslims are free to, privately, hold conferences, seminars & perform Tabligh attacking the Ahmadi faith. My point is merely that the government should not be involved in this.

So state should remain mum in case of Daesh justify their acts and speech under Quran & Hear Say? State should let Shia Sunni label each other? State should remain irrelevant to who occupies illegal land for construction of big medrassa and masjid? State should not worry about the number of mosques owned by various sects opened in the same locality?

Islamic state cannot ignore Quran. And Quran only is the solution to division and hatred created by us. Either call yourself Islamic or draft an unIslamic constitution for once and get rid of this confusion.

There is no space for Muslims in Islam to privately hold conferences, seminars and attack other faiths. Recently I heard Dr Arif Alvi where he quoted “The Covenant of the Prophet with the Monks of Mount Sinai” signed and stamped by Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him,

"It was about this time [after the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah] that the Prophet granted to the monks of the Monastery of St. Catherine, near Mount Sinai, his liberal charter by which they secured for the Christians noble and generous privileges and immunities. He undertook himself and enjoined his followers, to protect the Christians, to defend their churches and the residences of their priests and to guard them from all injuries. They were not to be unfairly taxed; no bishop was to be driven out of his diocese; nor Christian was to be forced to reject his religion; no monk was to be expelled from his Monastery; no pilgrim was to be stopped from his pilgrimage; nor were the Christian churches to be pulled down for the sake of building mosques or houses for the Muslims. Christian women married to Muslims were to enjoy their own religion and not to be subjected to compulsion or annoyance of any kind. If the Christians should stand in need of assistance for the repair of their churches or monasteries, or any other matter pertaining to their religion, the Muslims were to assist them. This was not to be considered as supporting their religion, but as simply rendering them assistance in special circumstances. Should the Muslims be engaged in hostilities with outside Christians, no Christian resident among the Muslims should be treated with contempt on account of his creed. The Prophet declared that any Muslim violating any clause of the charter should be regarded as a transgressor of Allah’s commandments, a violator of His testament and neglectful of His faith. (np)"

Link to one of the souces for extract above.

This is what an Islamic state does and this is how its leader acts. Good luck with separating Islam from a state and country that hardly practices it.

Qadiyani hazraat should take the lead and come public with a statement that they don't believe in Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza to be a prophet but Imam Mehdi (who is a fictional character anyways). That way they would become a sect. Though sectarianism in pure Islam has no place but in today's times there is no hope and this remains the only solution.

Or else they can drop calling themselves Muslims and let ALLAH decide it for them.

No my friend ... It is not a case of identity theft by a minority ... it Rather is a case of the Majority infringing on the right to self-identification/personal religious identity of the minority, and refusing them equal rights as the citizens of the state ....

No my friend it's a case where a minority is hell bent on calling themselves something which they are not, without any reasonable grounds, evidence and rationale. Stubbornness to accept it in public and let everyone live in peace. They themselves can't leave it to ALLAH but want other party to leave it to ALLAH.

I had mentioned to my dear friend that we don't want to put our Qadiyani friends in difficult situation(s), they don't have answers to the right questions. For example (this also relates to blasphemy debates we had)

(33:6) "Surely the Nabi has a greater claim over the believers than they have over each other .................. "

[33:6] "The Nabi is closer to the believers than they are to each other,.............."

Who is superior in eyes of our Qadiyani friends. The Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon Him, His Caliphs and companions .... OR ..... Their Messiah Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza, and his caliphs and companions?

At worst they are non Muslims, at best they are a sect ........ If Mr Ghulam Ahmed Mirza is not considered a prophet by them, even then he is guilty of division amongst Muslims in times when they needed unity. We call such people who are responsible for division as Khariji (the ones who exit the unity) and punishment for such people would have been .........
 
All These so called progressive liberal Muslims should bring out their fatwa declaring all those who consider Qadiyani/Ahmadi out of fold of Islam are Khawarij/Heretic/Terrorist.

Holding the state for ransom is a typical elitist phenonmenon best dealt on the streets.

Jo bacha wo musalman. 3 din se rola dala hua ha for their Economist Messiah.

PdS ffs
 
That cannot apply in this case. It applies only when someone exits an existing Jamaat. Not by forming a new Jamaat and then calling the existing one as Khawarij.

For them they are in the jamaat janaab.

Thats why i said Lets have a fatwa wars for the next 20 more years.
 
Catholics are christian too. No catholic is firing or killing a mormon for believing in what they believe (they think of themselves as christians), nor are they stopped from serving on merit. There is no law, in any country, stating that mormons are to disavow Jesus or stop using and associating terms with/of christianity. You continue to prove that you're dense, despite living in a country that proves the total opposite of what you insinuate.

On the religious level, each sect do differ hence the label including in the church. Mormon, Catholic and Christian have their own ideology and the history of bad blood. Recently, people are less fanatic hence less pressure on the modern society.

In term of multiculturalism, that is different place as regardless of the faith, everyone are entitled to practice their faith even Luciferan church followers that are no way in the same page with other sects of Christianity.

Nor each sect is trying to prove they are real one. If anything, there is label to show each sect has its own pride to celebrate and practice accordingly.

Only the Ahmedhiya community is insistent on calling itself Muslim. How can you be Muslim yet undermine Holy Quran at the same time? Or finality of Prophethood for that matter? If you believe in Ahmedhiya ideology, but don’t call yourself Muslim because that has nothing to do with Islam according to Holy Quran that is sent with revelations as guidance and the sign of the truth; wonder and curiosity among included.

What is happening to Ahmedhiya community is not right as Islam is against minority intolerance. But that doesn’t excuse to the label that defines what it is and to avoid the confusion for the good reason.

The whole point, if you haven't gathered, is that him being appointed to help the country's economy was and is not related to going about changing the man-made laws of the country. You can continue to believe that ahmedis aren't Muslim. The constitution of Pak can continue to state that ahmedis' aren't Muslim. None of it has anything to do with the best economist serving Pak in an advisory role.

Personally in my belief, religion and politics should not be in the same place. Unfortunately, Imran Khan being succumbing to the pressure sends the wrong message and empower the extremists political party that poses real fitna to Pakistan as whole.

As for constitutions, the finality is what keep Ahmedhiya community apart from the Islam through the politics but in terms of religion level, Ahmedhiya community shouldn’t be associated with Islam to begin with given their blatant undermining Holy Quran and the finality of Prophethood which does take you out of fold of Islam.

So why be part of Islam that you have no respect or intend to honour for that matter? Ahmedhiya as religion should be in different page for the religion that should not be associated with Islam.
 
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