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Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

Simple problem here is that M113 will not survive the modern munitions. I won't specify it here, but its survivability is beyond questionable.

My thought is that Pakistan needs to develop a family of tracked vehicles based on mature AK chassis. These new types of vehicles shall slowly and gradually phase out M113s which can be re-fitted to serve support roles and or to equip territorial forces.

Another family of vehicles should be developed based on the Dragoon ASV. Look into the Canadian TAPV. The wheeled 4x4 vehicles to serve various roles including COIN ops etc.

The Chinese DF Mengshi vehicles are also a highly modular option. They already are being produced in almost 10 different configurations.



I think its not a debate at all. Its been settled during 1973 Arab Israeli War.

Israel has since developed heavily armored APCs typically armed with an HMG (now being equipped with a remote turret). As well as with heavy class of IFVs based on the Merkava IV chassis.

Egypt inducted M2 Bradley vehicles and also BMPs.

The reason i quote 73 War as a use case here is because it bears a number of similarities to our scenario with India.
The Israelis used the T-55 chassis and rebuilt on top of it for their conflicts but that also meant they had funds allocated and expertise to do so.
There is a high focus on surviving for IDF personnel both from a limited numbers issue but also because of their focus on “dont die for your country, make the enemy die for theirs”.
They also had access to decent powerpacks that could replace the transverse one on the T-55 to make space in the compartment.

technically Pakistan could convert its legacy tanks but even if funds were made available from cannibalism from other programs the issue is lack of expertise in doing so for chassis beyond the M-113(which is a simple design in general).

Bear in mind the Israelis still use the M-113 (some 500 active and 5000 in storage available for conflicts) for APCs and while they have numbers of Achzarits (~200) and token numbers of Namer(120) and Nagmachon(specific for Urban warfare) those are generally kept for offensive ops.

The reason for this is that the offensive ops are for IFV and Heavy APC while the battle taxis remain the M-113. None of the 40 ton APCs types IDF has are as mobile as something like the M-113.

The Namer will eventually become the standard but even then the focus has shifter to improving survivability by Passive and APS systems rather than layering on Armor.

If Pakistanis can afford it - the PA could get a small number of Turk Tulpars to support offensive operations.

As far as better ATGMs go, the PA has a great option in the SK Raybolt if they can afford it.
 
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so many posts each ending with we have there is no vision in PA or we have no funds and other bull shit while not actually seeing what is actually going on.
PA did change its doctrine to have IFVs, HIT built Viper which was HIT's first IFV design. Viper ended up going into a Pilot production batch with several produced (Number built still remains a mystery, likely not just handful maybe a dozen or so idk), PA wasnt satisfied with the Viper so they asked HIT to re-make a new Heavy IFV with heavier caliber gun turret + rcws fitted ontop, HIT did the R&D for that new IFV, and released tenders to make a prototype of that IFV since early 2022. Now the next step likely will be trials and induction of that into PA service. Again HIT has been super hush hush with its programs recently which is why theres little info available.
 
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Turret, Hull and other component tenders were released in early 2022 but additional components tenders were released all the way till July 2022 after which no tender was released.
Attached below is tender for dev of 1 x APU for AFV released in July 2022 which I believe was the last tender for IFV project. Also the project full name (not shown here) is "Adv AFV" or Advanced AFV.
Screenshot_20230115-142255.png


Maybe @PanzerKiel can grace us with some Viper pics from trials or testing 😀
 
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Simple problem here is that M113 will not survive the modern munitions. I won't specify it here, but its survivability is beyond questionable.

My thought is that Pakistan needs to develop a family of tracked vehicles based on mature AK chassis. These new types of vehicles shall slowly and gradually phase out M113s which can be re-fitted to serve support roles and or to equip territorial forces.

Another family of vehicles should be developed based on the Dragoon ASV. Look into the Canadian TAPV. The wheeled 4x4 vehicles to serve various roles including COIN ops etc.

The Chinese DF Mengshi vehicles are also a highly modular option. They already are being produced in almost 10 different configurations.



I think its not a debate at all. Its been settled during 1973 Arab Israeli War.

Israel has since developed heavily armored APCs typically armed with an HMG (now being equipped with a remote turret). As well as with heavy class of IFVs based on the Merkava IV chassis.

Egypt inducted M2 Bradley vehicles and also BMPs.

The reason i quote 73 War as a use case here is because it bears a number of similarities to our scenario with India.
I am copying old posts since the topic has been discussed before.

Hit has a thrifty approach amalgamated with PA's mechanized doctrine of APCs. Inclusion of 25 mm or 30 mm or bigger cannon, an ATGM and also lesser seating capacity plus the protection systems and sensors on a single platform is what PA is looking for ? I still doubt if PA would pitch thin skinned (than MBT) at FEoB. Secondly, 125 mm holds the biggest punch, is it necessary to provide back up with 30 mm cannon ? and then isn't ATGM carrier with a 120 mm or 152 mm caliber missile a better weapon for one shot one kill scenario coupled with a longer range than a 30 mm cannon. 12.7 mm still mows down infantry, 30 mm is an over kill. Lots of factors be to debated.

There are 2-3 types of Mech battalions in PA.

The regular MIBs and then LATs and HATs. There are also mechanized transport elements in an armored regiment like M-113s derivates.

MIBs have the usual strength of ~770 troops. They are assigned roughly 50 x M113s. Each M-113 has carrying capacity is 13 troops including driver and commander/gunner. Where as an IFV will take 6 troops and 3 crew (driver, loader, commander/gunner). Where will the extra 4 troops go ? Cost issue- assign more IFVs means more fuel requirement and maintenance, assign more missiles for launcher and ammunition for 25 or 30 mm. Or cut down MIB troop strength, that means all Ops will need to be over hauled as Brigade and Division commander options will be limited. Almost a company strength in MIB has ATGM capable M-113.

Now if you cut strength then you come towards the LAT and HAT, around 550-600 troops. Again 48 - 50 x M-113s, but more than half strength are ATGM carriers M-113. Previously CJ-3, CJ-5 and defenders had 4-5 troops on every 4x4, now its 4 -5 troops on M-901 or Maaz.

MIBs work in conjunction with Armored Regiments, M-113s trail behind MBTs and then deploy infantry to support Armor, where as LATs and HATs are extremely mobile and are required to provide heavy firepower against infantry as well as armor. LATs and HATs deploy their weapons just like an Armor regiment deploys MBTs, but MIBs deploy troops, just like normal/regular infantry regiment. Both types of units have different roles.

LATs also had recon role or scout role previously, Im not sure if the role is still maintained, so a scout IFV like M3A3 Bradley?
Now change the doctrine and try to fit in IFV like Bradley or VIPER in MIB and LAT/HAT.
 
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Can LY 80 be used as anti ballistic missile shield what I know it can bring down any Indian cruiser missiles but not sure about ballistic missile if these can take down cruise missile I hope these can bring down ballistic missile too as ballistic missile are easier to take down due to their trajectory in contrast to cruise missile

 
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The best bet is to buy a off the shelf anyone here who really thinks HIT will produce a good IFV is mistaken there is no point of indulging into that convo just a buy a Chinese VN17 which is based on a VT5 chassis and it's happy days lingering on with M113s is just suicidal troops hardly feel safe when in going into CT ops in them let alone a war with India.

Now is the time to improve and learn depending upon HIT to deliver a magical IFV is a joke.
1675259525412.png
 
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Indians have inducted the NAG ATGM Carrier and are also working on their future Wheeled and Tracked IFVs yet some people are so far up their own arse and think Indian defense setup is backwards.

Indians have a better chance at building IFVs than the tiger of the West so called HIT.
 
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Something along the lines of the South African Ratel IFV would do wonders in our region its a perfect balance between a "battle taxi" and "IFV".
Ratel_l1.jpg
8c8c94a2f5e1e33ab0564a4ba97547b4.png
 
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