Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[django]

From the last backwards, that's why I find these conversations frustrating. If you persist in seeing Indian actions through the same lens with which you view the actions of the Pakistani deep state, these misconceptions will arise. There is nothing that individuals like I can do, to bridge this gap. I've found through the last eight years of conversation that this is the single biggest barrier to understanding; Pakistanis keep thinking that the Government of India is just a Hindu version of the Government of Pakistan, and is identical in its thinking and behaviour.

RAW, for instance, is composed mostly of serving policemen seconded to the organisation, who are going back to serve in their parent cadres (that means to the state where they were assigned on completing their initial 6 months of training). In those subsequent assignments, they are wholly exposed to political action. Their postings are determined by their acquiescence with the actions that the politicians wish to see taken. They do not flout political wishes during their later careers; they do not build up clandestine positions hostile to the wishes of the government of the day during their stints in intelligence. The reason why Doval has influence today is because he is carrying out the wishes and aspirations of today's government, and the reason why that influence is not translated into vigorous and effective action is because he is working with tools that he did not choose, and with an organisation that has had to stop at various red lights, and start again thereafter, if they were asked to. Not even close to the uninterrupted support and encouragement that the ISI received, and not even remotely comparable to the good professional results that can happen through uninterrupted work in covert areas in the field.

Contrast that with the ISI. It is composed, from top to bottom, of serving Army officers, who work in an insulated atmosphere within the government, sheltered from political influence by a clear demarcation of its work as being beyond the remit of the civilian government, and who return to active military service and get posted to fighting posts. There is no comparison with the Indian condition. None whatever. But you, and other well-meaning individuals of integrity and genuine good intentions, persist in thinking that the two are the same. Just a different hue of ideology, just saffron instead of green.

I can't do a thing about this, because such an attitude is built out of a lifetime of experiences that the other side, that the body of individuals I am talking to, has gone through. No amount of reason or countervailing experience can change those attitudes.

We don't, for instance, have the equivalent of General Durrani. We didn't go through the exercise that the ISI has done in more than one case. In the tape, he talks about the location of OBL being known and about the morality involved in the operations of the ISI in Afghanistan. We had nothing equivalent. And I say this with a great deal, an unusual amount of insight and information about our dealings with the Bangladeshis.

Those deputed policemen or what not proved to be extremely effective at nurturing Mukti Bani, Mr Modi pretty much acknowledged this as does the book "Mission RA&W" by former RAW operative R.K Yadav, we have a proven and acknowledged history of RAW and it's very effective operations against Pakistan, forgive us for being hyper-vigilant, it should be perfectly understandable .Kudos Joe

 

[Signalian]

An IFV would prefer ATGM for neutralizing enemy IFV or MBT. Meanwhile, 25mm cannon fire can hold the dismounted troops.

12.7mm can do the same?

 

[django]

Coming to Commander Yadav, it is according to your government that we learn that he 'visited' Pakistan in 2005. What is the source of this information? Confessional statements by Yadav? The evidence of an avowedly fake passport, of the sort that government backed clandestine operations produce in a routine manner, and that can be doctored to show any amount of supposed visiting of a hostile country? If so, surely you can draw your own conclusions. If you take me into custody, and after a period of time, produce my confessions before a magistrate that I have been stealing government funds for a period of twenty five years (disclaimer: I didn't; this is just an example), how much is that worth?

The man is said to have taken premature retirement and gone into private business. That rank and age is more or less the rank and time at which officers of field grade passed over for selection resign and try to make a career for themselves in other fields of life. Suddenly now we find that he has actually been in Pakistan for eleven years.

Tell me what you make of that.

I never said Mr Yadav spent 11 concurrent years in Pakistan, he was moving back and forth, in regards to his passport and how he acquired it, the Indian government should check with the appropriate Indian organisation that issues them out, a very simple query indeed and why has the Indian govt not taken up the case of the kidnapping of Hussain Mubarik Patel with the Iranian govt, you see he entered Iran under that name and with the passport that was issued by Indian govt, whether one believes that Yadav is a RAW operative or not surely Joe a thoughtful chap like yourself will be most curious about the mysterious Mr Yadav AKA Hussain Mubarik Patel.Kudos Joe

 

[Signalian]

The doctrine that will lead us to defeat must change.

I don't advocate completely replacing APC's with IFV's but using both. While MBT's and IFV's lead, the APC's follow. The VN17 IFV has remote controlled cannon to engage enemy infantry and light armoured vehicles. And few ATGM's as well.

Hamza was not accepted by PA.



The reason I mentioned VN17 is it could prove affordable for Pakistan. The Ukrainians provide worst after sale support and expensive spare parts & oil.

If its the firepower of an IFV which can engage infantry or MBT, then even Maaz is also a probable candidate, Its armed with 12.7mm gun to engage infantry and ATGM to engage MBT. Just like Bradley, it will need to stop to fire the ATGM.

The problem in direct engagement could be the armor of the M-113 and its variants like Talha, Maaz etc, which is aluminium and catches fire easily. To counter this, caged side covering or steel plates or other kind of protective covering on side has been used.

what kind of armor does VN17 have to survive direct engagement? It looks similar to a CV-90. With the armament, it again comes down to 12.7mm vs 30mm in engaging infantry. VN17 doesnt have a 7.62mm MG. would 30mm be an over kill?

 

[Gryphon]

Pakistani light mechanized Infantry workhorse transforming into a Heavy armed assault Force​

@Gryphon

@Signalian and me and also many other respected Members have discussed many times the concept of the Pakistan Army doctrine "Battle taxi", and of course we did come to the conclusion that the M-113 does not really fit the role in an Indian war theater, what comes after dismounting the assault the Infantry? Face the bulk of Indian formations (MBTs,BMPs,Infantry) with RPG-7 (short range, cant penetrate modern MBT in the first shoot),12.7mm (M-113 will not follow the infantry to the hot zone so that's also a restricted defensive weapon), 60mm Mortar which is a WW2 weapon (inaccurate). I don't think that the Pakistani Military does have the budge to replace the M-113 or will change its doctrine of "Battle taxi", but what they can do and that might be also economical and reallistic, is to modernize the mechanized Infantry Soldiers quipment. If Assault Infantry alone has to face the Indian BMPs, MBTs, and enemy Infantry, obstacles, enemy bunkers, enemy trenches. then why not transforming that light Infantry into a heavy one: that means adding to every squat like @Gryphon said new and modern weapons like the Alcotan.

The Pakistani squad/section assault Infantry level needs more and higher precise firepower, which can be given through:

- under-barrel grenade launcher, close fire support against point and area targets(every Soldiers weapon should be equipped with that)

-one-man portable, single-use anti-tank rocket launcher (which have bought, but I doubt it was meant for the mechanized Infantry Battalions)

- more and modern hand grenades

- a better and modern Infantry rifle (which adds better targeting/aiming systems)

- sophisticated night vision equipment

The Pakistani Concept at the moment looks like that, check the Infantry they seem to have very rudimentary equipment.

View attachment 438573 View attachment 438574


Compare that to the US Army mechanized Infantry equipment:



View attachment 438575


@Signalian I have seen that show from W.S Khan "We are Soldiers" during my own military service that was around 2010, but their equipment is still not update after 8 years!

Correct on all counts.

Each mechanized division can easily absorb 2,000 pcs of Alcotan-AT (the anti-tank version PA acquired in small numbers).
Western militaries are switching to disposable anti-tank rockets as well.

12.7mm can do the same?

12.7mm is too heavy for a soldier to carry. Neither do HMG equipped M-113 APC's fight in the hot zone as @Ulla mentioned above.

If its the firepower of an IFV which can engage infantry or MBT, then even Maaz is also a probable candidate, Its armed with 12.7mm gun to engage infantry and ATGM to engage MBT. Just like Bradley, it will need to stop to fire the ATGM.

The problem in direct engagement could be the armor of the M-113 and its variants like Talha, Maaz etc, which is aluminium and catches fire easily. To counter this, caged side covering or steel plates or other kind of protective covering on side has been used.

what kind of armor does VN17 have to survive direct engagement? It looks similar to a CV-90. With the armament, it again comes down to 12.7mm vs 30mm in engaging infantry. VN17 doesnt have a 7.62mm MG. would 30mm be an over kill?

Maaz ATGM Carrier

12.7mm is not visible (at least with this example)





The new VN-17 infantry-fighting vehicle (IFV) uses a heavily modified version of the 33-ton VT-5 light tank's chassis. It has an unmanned (read: remotely controlled) turret with two large, multi-lens electro-optical and infrared sensors (one each for the gunner and commander). Those sensors come in handy when the system needs to use its 35mm cannon, 7.62mm machine gun, or medium-range HJ-12 anti-tank missiles. The VN-17 is also well protected, with reactive armor on the lower front hull, and significant side-skirt armor alongside its tracks. All this, plus its capacity to carry seven infantry, makes it likely in the 30-35 ton weight class.

It shares some similarity with the People's Liberation Army's mysterious new infantry-fighting vehicle, which will reportedly have an unmanned turret, augmented displays for crew helmets, and a hybrid-electrical engine for fuel efficiency and stealth. In terms of armament, protection, and sensors, both the VN-17 and the unnamed PLA IFV compare quite favorably to the U.S. Army's M2A3 Bradley IFV. But unlike the 35-year-old Bradley, China's brand new battle taxis have plenty of margin to grow into future upgrades like more advanced armor, better weapons, APS, sensors, and deploying unmanned partners.

https://www.popsci.com/china-has-fleet-new-armor-vehicles



Cannon can fire HE fragmentation rounds which are excellent weapon for dealing with infantry troops.

One can probably justify the requirement for Lt Inf. Div. in the US army; where an entire division, ready to fight as soon they get on the ground, can be moved to a trouble spot thousands of miles away in a fleet of C-130 /C141 aeroplanes. However, India has 15 Lt Infantry Div. in addition to the 12 Mountain Infantry Div. and now Pakistan has also created one.

IA has Light Infantry regiments. Their battalions perform normal infantry role & are distributed among all Corps.

There is no Light Inf. Div. in IA.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Those deputed policemen or what not proved to be extremely effective at nurturing Mukti Bani, Mr Modi pretty much acknowledged this as does the book "Mission RA&W" by former RAW operative R.K Yadav, we have a proven and acknowledged history of RAW and it's very effective operations against Pakistan, forgive us for being hyper-vigilant, it should be perfectly understandable .Kudos Joe

RAW was not at all involved with the Mukti Bahini. That was purely an Indian Army operation, and a specific Major General, a Bengali, in Eastern Command, was put in charge. I forget his name. Besides his coordination attempts with the Mukti Bahini - not an easy task, with a tough guy like Osmani insisting that they had a completely independent command and control structure, and that they would fight to their own plans - he was also responsible for marshalling and deploying Indian Army individuals deputed to fight supporting MB formations or to play supporting roles in the field. That means individuals, outstanding officers of field rank, were attached to company level or battalion level formations of the MB to stiffen their tactical handling. The MB had organised themselves into various sectors, and jealously guarded their operational independence.

However, this go-it-alone policy, which was implemented by Osmani and his 'sector commanders', had failed by August-September; the PA were effectively back on top. This phase did, however, keep the PA busy and by the end, they were fatigued at fighting a counter-insurgency war at full pitch for four months at a stretch. The Pakistan Army that turned to fight the Indian Army in November was exhausted.

I have not read Mission R&W. Most of what is talked about is self-glorification by Kao-boys who have read too many James Bond books.

I never said Mr Yadav spent 11 concurrent years in Pakistan, he was moving back and forth, in regards to his passport and how he acquired it, the Indian government should check with the appropriate Indian organisation that issues them out, a very simple query indeed and why has the Indian govt not taken up the case of the kidnapping of Hussain Mubarik Patel with the Iranian govt, you see he entered Iran under that name and with the passport that was issued by Indian govt, whether one believes that Yadav is a RAW operative or not surely Joe a thoughtful chap like yourself will be most curious about the mysterious Mr Yadav AKA Hussain Mubarik Patel.Kudos Joe

I really would appreciate this sub-thread of ours going independent, if you would be so kind, @django. Too many of my posts fail to pass muster; must be my bad breath.

 

[BetterPakistan]

Tanks: 124 Arjun, 1,950 T-72, 900+ T-90, 1 with 1,100 in store (older models). Total 4,074 additional 236 T-90 & 118 Arjun on order. Making a total of 4,428 tanks.

Yes that person is quoting 6000 tanks and i have questioned him source many times before but I didn't got answer ever

I don't think those stored 1100 tanks in indian army can be made operational.

M48 stored of Pak army couldn't be made operational too

 

[Mumm-Ra]

@Joe Shearer @django...Gentlemen, you both are among the finest posters on this forum. Please do not derail an excellent thread. The Yadav saga can be discussed in its respective thread

@Signalian ...hats off for a thorough and impartial analysis

 

[django]

@Joe Shearer @django...Gentlemen, you both are among the finest posters on this forum. Please do not derail an excellent thread. The Yadav saga can be discussed in its respective thread

@Signalian ...hats off for a thorough and impartial analysis

Roger.Kudos yaar.

RAW was not at all involved with the Mukti Bahini. That was purely an Indian Army operation, and a specific Major General, a Bengali, in Eastern Command, was put in charge. I forget his name. Besides his coordination attempts with the Mukti Bahini - not an easy task, with a tough guy like Osmani insisting that they had a completely independent command and control structure, and that they would fight to their own plans - he was also responsible for marshalling and deploying Indian Army individuals deputed to fight supporting MB formations or to play supporting roles in the field. That means individuals, outstanding officers of field rank, were attached to company level or battalion level formations of the MB to stiffen their tactical handling. The MB had organised themselves into various sectors, and jealously guarded their operational independence.

However, this go-it-alone policy, which was implemented by Osmani and his 'sector commanders', had failed by August-September; the PA were effectively back on top. This phase did, however, keep the PA busy and by the end, they were fatigued at fighting a counter-insurgency war at full pitch for four months at a stretch. The Pakistan Army that turned to fight the Indian Army in November was exhausted.

I have not read Mission R&W. Most of what is talked about is self-glorification by Kao-boys who have read too many James Bond books.



I really would appreciate this sub-thread of ours going independent, if you would be so kind, @django. Too many of my posts fail to pass muster; must be my bad breath.

An interesting discussion that no doubt will be discussed in a more appropriate thread, I suspect their are a few of those dangling already.Kudos Joe and @Signalian bro thank you for your patience. much obliged.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer @django...Gentlemen, you both are among the finest posters on this forum. Please do not derail an excellent thread. The Yadav saga can be discussed in its respective thread

@Signalian ...hats off for a thorough and impartial analysis

I agree. @django, please open a thread for this. @Signalian, wonderful thread.

 

[Hellfire]

Those who consider that Rahim yar Khan is an area where IA CSD can succeed should keep in mind that the whole stretch is protected by a Division which has 220 MBT at its disposal. plus an Independent Armoured Brigade having 88 MBT.

@Ulla @Northern @django @Mentee @Khafee @tps77 @CriticalThought @Baloch Pakistani

I see the capture of Islamgarh fort by a single unit of aindian Army in 1971 was taken too seriously perhaps? The company commander responsible for the defence of the fort should be shot IMO. He surrendered to a single infantry battalion which was spread in a frontage of 3 kms, mistaking the spread as the advance of a Brigade sized attacking force

@Joe Shearer this tidbit I mentioned earlier if you recall. The unit is 3rd Battalion Rajputana Rifles. Only 1 guy was injured in this capture of Fort at Islamgarh on the night of attack on Longewala. The whole division had pulled back due to PA attack and unit was incommunicado and unaware. Pressed on with its attack

do Indians already know abiut the info yiu posted ?

This and much more. Don’t take it too seriously. Composition and equipment to even lot numbers of ammunition and nuts and bolts is known to each other.

This could only be seen in your dreams because there is nothing like that on grounds

6000 tanks

Perhaps you can suggest a figure?

 

[BetterPakistan]

Perhaps you can suggest a figure?

At max 4000.

Operational + Stored

 

[cerberus]

Offcourse.

At max 4000.

Operational + Stored

Great Write Me Down I Will Give To Senior Director CGDA Mod

 

[Joe Shearer]

I see the capture of Islamgarh fort by a single unit of aindian Army in 1971 was taken too seriously perhaps? The company commander responsible for the defence of the fort should be shot IMO. He surrendered to a single infantry battalion which was spread in a frontage of 3 kms, mistaking the spread as the advance of a Brigade sized attacking force

@Joe Shearer this tidbit I mentioned earlier if you recall. The unit is 3rd Battalion Rajputana Rifles. Only 1 guy was injured in this capture of Fort at Islamgarh on the night of attack on Longewala. The whole division had pulled back due to PA attack and unit was incommunicado and unaware. Pressed on with its attack




This and much more. Don’t take it too seriously. Composition and equipment to even lot numbers of ammunition and nuts and bolts is known to each other.



Perhaps you can suggest a figure?

Yes, so you did. I went and looked it up later. What surprises me is the complete lack of aerial reconnaissance inputs.

IIRC, Z. A. Khan has written about that encounter from the Pakistani point of view.

 

[Hellfire]

At max 4000.

Operational + Stored

Okay.

@niaz gave you a number in an earlier post.

I will just add for a ballpark figure:


Officially 62 Armoured Units in Indian Army. That is 62 x 59 1st line held. So, 3658 tanks in 1st line.

Add to it a figure of 1100 held as stocks as mentioned earlier. That is 3rd line. So, 4758 so far

Interesting, the 2nd Line? Assume 1/10th is reserve for all 1st line. That gives 365 tanks more. So 5123.

Now we have forgotten Operational T-55s (Combat Engineers use them for eg) and additional numbers of same held as mothballed have not been catered to in the figure.

So, you might find about 500 odd more over and above the figure listed earlier; to be a closer approximation. That makes it 5623. Of course I shall not include a few Centurions held either.

@Joe Shearer

And that is a conservative rough estimate from my side.

There is a reason why PA went in for HAT-LAT concept. Try looking at that. You will understand that 6000 figure is not at all off.

PS: I may have my figures of approximation wrong by virtue of underestimating. Apologies for same.