Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[Basel]

Correct.

Artillery also forces an MBT to keep changing positions when the pounding starts. Immobilised MBT's are easy targets for artillery. A good way to use artillery against MBT is when MBT enters a minefield and exploding mine damages its tracks, immobilising it.

An underestimated weapon in PA is the mortar when used in conjunction with armoured forces. Most modern armies have 120mm mortar placed in M-113 and its a very effective weapon with good range (6-7 km)


yes PA should.

This how effective German Flak 88 was against Tanks in WW2, now PA have DU rounds for 105 Howitzers too, you can do the math.

 

[Signalian]

I don't think so. Alcotan is offered in four variants. Visit the below link for details

http://instalaza.com/producto/alcotan/?lang=en

Pakistan acquired the anti-tank version. IMO, it should be issued to all infantry and mechanized infantry battalions (under holding corps) facing enemy MBT/IFV threat.

Probably AT version was acquired due to highest penetration value, still capable of damaging a bunker and some fragmentation but at limited range of 600m and no worthwhile guidance, its only a suitable replacement for RPG-7. Cannot come close to an ATGM's performance in range and guidance.

PA has 4x 60 mm mortar operators in each M-113. Isn't the 120 mm mortar too heavy?

Range is more and payload is bigger.

This how effective German Flak 88 was against Tanks in WW2, now PA have DU rounds for 105 Howitzers too, you can do the math.

88 was an AD gun, a howitzer or field gun would be different.

Tanks had thinner armor in WW2 but artillery calibres were same as of today, like 105mm and 155mm.

 

[Basel]

Probably AT version was acquired due to highest penetration value, still capable of damaging a bunker and some fragmentation but at limited range of 600m and no worthwhile guidance, its only a suitable replacement for RPG-7. Cannot come close to an ATGM's performance in range and guidance.


Range is more and payload is bigger.



88 was an AD gun, a howitzer or field gun would be different.

Tanks had thinner armor in WW2 but artillery calibres were same as of today, like 105mm and 155mm.

Germans had Anti armor rounds for flak 88 and that gun was able to fire at high velocity which make it lethal anti tank gun during WW2, flak 88 gun was used in tanks too it was most widely used gun in German military during WW2.

 

[randomradio]

Germans had Anti armor rounds for flak 88 and that gun was able to fire at high velocity which make it lethal anti tank gun during WW2, flak 88 gun was used in tanks too it was most widely used gun in German military during WW2.

The King Tiger II tank had less than 200mm armour, I would recommend checking the armour on modern tanks.

 

[ziaulislam]

The crew hatch was open, the guy got shell shocked and ran out. The tank was in fighting condition. Nothing happened to the tank. If you notice even Shtora was turned off. The crew was probably sent out into the field without proper training.



PA won't get that lucky when facing India. We don't plan to operate inside urban areas and Indian tanks will have better air support.

MLRS and artillery are area effect weapons. It's not easy to employ against tanks because you need that extremely rare direct hit. Counter battery and air support can take out the MLRS and artillery systems.

So i have to belive that tank operator doesnt know the first thung about tactics...really alot of assumptions
Clearly it was disabled and abandoned

 

[ziaulislam]

The crew hatch was open, the guy got shell shocked and ran out. The tank was in fighting condition. Nothing happened to the tank. If you notice even Shtora was turned off. The crew was probably sent out into the field without proper training.



PA won't get that lucky when facing India. We don't plan to operate inside urban areas and Indian tanks will have better air support.

MLRS and artillery are area effect weapons. It's not easy to employ against tanks because you need that extremely rare direct hit. Counter battery and air support can take out the MLRS and artillery systems.

Smart wespons have changed the field but i agree with airsupport

 

[ziaulislam]

Even in WW-2 artillery was very deadly weapon against tanks. Get your facts right.

And that too unguided....things have changed now

 

[Basel]

The King Tiger II tank had less than 200mm armour, I would recommend checking the armour on modern tanks.

I was only referring to anti tank capability of artillery in general as some one here was saying that artillery is not good weapon against tanks, also IA armor will be facing 105mm & 125mm DU rounds from artillery & tanks.

 

[Gryphon]

Probably AT version was acquired due to highest penetration value, still capable of damaging a bunker and some fragmentation but at limited range of 600m and no worthwhile guidance, its only a suitable replacement for RPG-7. Cannot come close to an ATGM's performance in range and guidance.


Range is more and payload is bigger.



88 was an AD gun, a howitzer or field gun would be different.

Tanks had thinner armor in WW2 but artillery calibres were same as of today, like 105mm and 155mm.

If it was intended for bunkers, why not acquire the anti-bunker variant? The anti-tank version has no fragments.

Replacement for RPG-7, I would think no. These rockets cost roughly US$ 10,000 each and only 1,413 pcs were purchased in the initial batch. RPG's are much cheaper.

IMO, the intention is to use those against MBT/IFV targets - in areas allowing cover and/or having a few rockets in APC's allowing better engagement of MBT/IFV by the dismounted infantry.

Regarding 120 mm mortar in APC, the ones used by PA are very heavy. Which models do other armies carry in APC's?

 

[Army research]

The alotocan would be used as portable AT weapons say in Kashmir where there might be no tanks on the mountains , but once you capture an enemy peak then behind it would be enemy infrastructure and cities full of roads tanks mraps ifv. Furthermore Altocan can be used in Lahore sialkot kasur field against enemy tanks on class range with cover with a tandem war head to defeat ERA and armour of tanks front for old, sides for older tanks.
To use Altocan in deserts is impractical strategically as they only have 600 metre range, and when your exposed in the open there's no chance of survival. In desert the force with better guns and range wins, number don't matter much. There is no Cover and fortifications can be destroyed by guided munitions. Maneuverable tanks with Anti air denial, long range guns and long range Atgms are the way to win.
Pakistan needs dedicated new generation anti tank platforms.
Take old M113 , Patton's type 59 , remove most armour, add new engine remove turret and add either dedicated new gen atgm multi launcher or also add extra Mortar like Israeli Namer.
Following Israeli approach to Armoured warfare would be the best as after having studied them, I've found that they have improved their techniques significantly over they previous wars they've had and now they're equipment is unlike anyother found in the world, specially designed to take out the highly outnumbering Arab tanks , new and old.
Essentially they're following the Wehrmacht's way but keeping in mind modern technologies and EW

 

[Inception-06]

If it was intended for bunkers, why not acquire the anti-bunker variant? The anti-tank version has no fragments.

Replacement for RPG-7, I would think no. These rockets cost roughly US$ 10,000 each and only 1,413 pcs were purchased in the initial batch. RPG's are much cheaper.

IMO, the intention is to use those against MBT/IFV targets - in areas allowing cover and/or having a few rockets in APC's allowing better engagement of MBT/IFV by the dismounted infantry.

Regarding 120 mm mortar in APC, the ones used by PA are very heavy. Which models do other armies carry in APC's?

Only 158 Systems and 1430 Missiles were bought !

 

[Signalian]

Regarding 120 mm mortar in APC, the ones used by PA are very heavy. Which models do other armies carry in APC's?

Wiesel 2
M1129 Stryker
AMOS on AMV, CV-90
Rak- Rosomak
HSW
Nona
etc

 

[Gryphon]

Only 158 Systems and 1430 Missiles were bought !

At IDEAS 2016, Instalaza reportedly offered local production if PA committed to larger orders in future.

Wiesel 2
M1129 Stryker
AMOS on AMV, CV-90
Rak- Rosomak
HSW
Nona
etc

You mean self propelled mortars

 

[Signalian]

If it was intended for bunkers, why not acquire the anti-bunker variant? The anti-tank version has no fragments.

Replacement for RPG-7, I would think no. These rockets cost roughly US$ 10,000 each and only 1,413 pcs were purchased in the initial batch. RPG's are much cheaper.

IMO, the intention is to use those against MBT/IFV targets - in areas allowing cover and/or having a few rockets in APC's allowing better engagement of MBT/IFV by the dismounted infantry.

Prospect of Alcotan to be used on LOC due to conversion of IA 10th Infantry Division to RAPID with MBT's and IFV's. RPG and SPG-9 have 70mm and 73mm calibre. No limitation of firing from confined spaces like bunkers. AT version showed some fragmentation on the bar scale below specs.

You mean self propelled mortars

Very useful in aspect of indirect fire.

 

[Gryphon]

Prospect of Alcotan to be used on LOC due to conversion of IA 10th Infantry Division to RAPID with MBT's and IFV's. RPG and SPG-9 have 70mm and 73mm calibre. No limitation of firing from confined spaces like bunkers. AT version showed some fragmentation on the bar scale below specs.


Very useful in aspect of indirect fire.

Akhnoor isn't located along LoC. The division was converted into a RAPID keeping in view the vulnerability of the area.

30 Corps has two IABG's right across and some of it's infantry battalions have been apparently mechanized in last 3 years following delivery of VCC-1 Camillino. Then, there is the 1 Corps.

Alcotan is useful everywhere - in areas providing cover, i.e., buildings/houses and even in the desert: have 1 soldier with Alcotan in every section sitting inside an APC.

Regarding SP mortar, PA has a large inventory of Type 59's - a few hundred should be converted into SP mortar or ATGM carrier vehicles with fire on the move ATGM's like Ingwe (and possibly HJ-12).