Meaning of Freedom...

[bozorgmehr]

I know it may sound like a silly question. But I think it's a dead serious issue for all of us to think about. It seems like everybody says they want freedom. From communists, to Islamists, to Monarchists, to MEK and everything in between, everybody is fighting for freedom!!! We've been fighting for it since before the constitutional revolution. Fighting for freedom against the British and Russian encroachment, fighting for freedom against internal repression and lack of accountability, fighting for freedom from American interference, fighting for the freedom to wear hejab, fighting for freedom not to wear the hejab, fighting for freedom against monarchical tyranny, fighting for freedom against religious tyranny, and on and on and on.... And yet today, we are still unable to practice and express some of the most basic and inherent human actions and thoughts in Iran?

What are your views on freedom? Is human inherently free? Should he be? Is there such a thing as absolute freedom? If so, how is it exercised? If not, what are the constraints? And who/what should decide the confines of freedom? If we go by the argument that we all want freedom, is it possible to agree on a definition of relative freedom that incorporates as much freedom as possible? Or should the reverse be true?

What do you think?

 

[Falcon29]

No we aren't free and won't ever be free(unless there is God who grants us happiness/afterlife). We just psychologically adapt to world around us and avoid/ignore negative aspects of our world.

 

[bozorgmehr]

No we aren't free and won't ever be free(unless there is God who grants us happiness/afterlife). We just psychologically adapt to world around us and avoid/ignore negative aspects of our world.

Let me understand... So you're saying we have something akin to the inverse of absolute freedom? Like absolute 'un-freedom'? So if you wanna take a dump or have glass of water, you're unable to do so?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Interesting question.

I'm from Hong Kong, which is considered "free". And I travel a lot to Mainland China, which is considered "not free". And I've traveled extensively all over the world.

Yet I don't notice any real difference in terms of "freedom"? In both places, I can basically do whatever I want, and say whatever I want, as long as I'm not committing crimes or attacking other people.

 

[Falcon29]

Let me understand... So you're saying we have something akin to the inverse of absolute freedom? Like absolute 'un-freedom'? So if you wanna take a dump or have glass of water, you're unable to do so?

Freedom is a lot bigger than basic biological functions from my POV. I understand you have political angle to your thread, mine is more philosophical. We humans can't taste what total freedom is like. There are so many obligations in day to day life, if you choose to ignore them, you face severe consequences. Even if you achieve career goals, you won't be happy. There is always this constant reminder that we are a limited species that has many faults. There will always be negative or discontent emotions. Even if you leave religion, it could improve some personal lives, but it won't result in discovering freedom. Unless of course you dumb freedom to basic biological functions.

 

[bozorgmehr]

Interesting question.

I'm from Hong Kong, which is considered "free". And I travel a lot to Mainland China, which is considered "not free". And I've traveled extensively all over the world.

Yet I don't notice any real difference in terms of "freedom"? In both places, I can basically do whatever I want, and say whatever I want, as long as I'm not committing crimes or attacking other people.

Well why not attacking or committing crimes against others? Shouldn't you have freedom to do that if you want to? Isn't that some sort of impingement on your freedoms, albeit it one that you consent to? Who decides what you can and cannot do? And criteria do you use to decide that?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Well why not attacking or committing crimes against others? Shouldn't you have freedom to do that if you want to? Isn't that some sort of impingement on your freedoms, albeit it one that you consent to? Who decides what you can and cannot do? And criteria do you use to decide that?

One quote I've heard is: "The limits of freedom are the rights of other people".

The implication is that you are free to do what you want, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of other people.

I guess absolute freedom would only exist in some sort of Anarchist system (no government no rules). Which I guess could only exist in some post-Apocalyptic scenario.

 

[bozorgmehr]

Freedom is a lot bigger than basic biological functions from my POV. I understand you have political angle to your thread, mine is more philosophical. We humans can't taste what total freedom is like. There are so many obligations in day to day life, if you choose to ignore them, you face severe consequences. Even if you achieve career goals, you won't be happy. There is always this constant reminder that we are a limited species that has many faults. There will always be negative or discontent emotions. Even if you leave religion, it could improve some personal lives, but it won't result in discovering freedom. Unless of course you dumb freedom to basic biological functions.

"Freedom is a lot bigger than basic functions..." So does that mean you believe as humans, we have inherent free will to do as we please?

And consequences flow from our actions. Does that negate our freedom to commit does actions? Does that mean we don't have the freedom.

Are emotions some kind of an external factor, which fall outside our field of exercise, over which we cannot exercise our free will?

And I know I used mainly political analogies from contemporary Iranian history. Because that's what we mainly talk about here. But feel free to ignore that and jump in with your own ideas and examples...

 

[Daneshmand]

Say, you were "free". Completely free. What you are going to do with that freedom? I am interested to know something tangible which you can't do right now and you want to do when free?

And do you know the history of freedom in Western context?

 

[bozorgmehr]

One quote I've heard is: "The limits of freedom are the rights of other people".

The implication is that you are free to do what you want, as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of other people.

I guess absolute freedom would only exist in some sort of Anarchist system (no government no rules). Which I guess could only exist in some post-Apocalyptic scenario.

Interesting point about the limits of freedom! Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with far eastern thought and philosophy. But I know that in the Abrahamic tradition, humans are seen as devoid of any freedom, unless expressly permitted by god or his representatives.

Modern enlightenment threw that upside down, and struck the position that humans are inherently free to do anything, until forbidden in specific instances.

Interestingly, the only ancient tradition that I'm aware of that was intellectually rigorous enough to recognize inherent human free will, and endow human with the freedom to choose and be subject to consequences of his actions without divine judgement, was Zoroastrianism.

 

[Falcon29]

"Freedom is a lot bigger than basic functions..." So does that mean you believe as humans, we have inherent free will to do as we please?

No I don't believe that, but my definition of freedom is different than yours. By the way, I agree with a lot of things you say. I'm not religious anymore incase you didn't figure that out.

And consequences flow from our actions. Does that negate our freedom to commit does actions? Does that mean we don't have the freedom.

We don't have freedom from consequences, unless you can mentally train your brain to believe consequences or negatives don't exist.

And I know I used mainly political analogies from contemporary Iranian history. Because that's what we mainly talk about here. But feel free to ignore that and jump in with your own ideas and examples...

I understand your gripe is with Islam. However, Islam isn't going away anytime soon. One because it's a useful tool for the masses. Two, the political situation in the region is miserable and very competitive, so people will lunge towards religion to overcome any fears. Hopefully you realize this and thank me for changing the main gist of the thread.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What a deep question , left me speechless

 

[bozorgmehr]

Say, you were "free". Completely free. What you are going to do with that freedom? I am interested to know something tangible which you can't do right now and you want to do when free?

And do you know the history of freedom in Western context?

I don't know! What do you do with freedom? Put it in a jar next to the ground cumin?

There are a lot of things I could think of. And that would allow me to think of more things I can't think of right now. Let's start with the simple stuff. How about taking my wife to a football match? Or walking down the street without her having to cover her hair?

No I don't believe that, but my definition of freedom is different than yours. By the way, I agree with a lot of things you say. I'm not religious anymore incase you didn't figure that out.

Well maybe then you can tell us your own definition of freedom, if its not state secret.

We don't have freedom from consequences, unless you can mentally train your brain to believe consequences or negatives don't exist.

Well then, is it fair to say that according to you we have free will to act, but we have no freedom from the consequences of our actions?

I understand your gripe is with Islam. However, Islam isn't going away anytime soon. One because it's a useful tool for the masses. Two, the political situation in the region is miserable and very competitive, so people will lunge towards religion to overcome any fears. Hopefully you realize this and thank me for changing the main gist of the thread.

I wish you were not in such a hurry to come to a conclusion and get back into your comfort zone and could indulge yourself to entertain the idea for its own merit, for a little bit...

 

[Daneshmand]

I don't know! What do you do with freedom? Put it in a jar next to the ground cumin?

There are a lot of things I could think of. And that would allow me to think of more things I can't think of right now. Let's start with the simple stuff. How about taking my wife to a football match? Or walking down the street without her having to cover her hair?

Wow, angry!

Those are good things you said. My questions were not to antagonize you, but to bring thoughtfulness to this.

As I have seen time and again, our people still have not understood, that the freedom they are talking about has its roots in Western construct of freedom. Zoroastrianism despite its other good aspects, had nothing to do with freedom or what we consider as freedom today. Neither does Islam, Christianity or for that matter any other religion.

You left out the answer to my most important and critical question which was about Western concept of freedom and how it started its life. As always instead of thinking, anger takes over us. Maybe from time to time, it would be better to put that anger in a jar next to the "ground cumin".

But I guess, we want the fruits without the labor. That's why then this happens: 'Nice breasts' Cologne sex attack 'immigrant' suspects carried sinister translation notes | World | News | Daily Express

 

[Maira La]

No I don't believe that, but my definition of freedom is different than yours. By the way, I agree with a lot of things you say. I'm not religious anymore incase you didn't figure that out.
...
I understand your gripe is with Islam. However, Islam isn't going away anytime soon. One because it's a useful tool for the masses.

I see that you're back to agnosticism, or is it atheism this time? Anyways, welcome back to the dark side!