Maulanas to Modi: we have not come from Arabia.Our ancestors were also Indians

[SQ8]

True enough...though what I analyse is from the present standpoint. As havizultan said and I quote The call for identifying pakistan with "We muslims have a distinct identity and are in no way Indians. Our legends are those of Ahmed Shah Durrani, Mir Chakar Khan Rind, Mahmud Ghaznavi among many others. The more recent laid back attitude of other muslims left in Indian occupied parts and their support to people like Kalam Azad is a threat to the entire well being of our people who must fight for their rights and ask the question why property taken from us in Hyderabad and Lucknow has not been returned to us since the partition.

My parents were born in Lucknow but they are Pakistani and Pakistan will and should forever be in the heart of every muslim left there. We are one body. You can cut the head but it will always belong to one body. We muslims should not become slaves of India specially since they are the killers of our people".

This confusion of culture is deeply rooted in pakistani society, it was especially true in the earlier decades when most pakistani - and to an extent a large Indian contingent identified themselves with arabs or afghans...even mughals. There are many Indian muslims who carry the surname of khan who do not genetically or physically appear anywhere close to the tribals of afghanistan. They adopt the dress and head gear matching the arabs and central asians, they even mimic their culture and their food habits...especially true for the madrasseh bunch or muslims from the lower strata of society.

It has become so a little bit. For e.g.. whilst I do consider people like Sher Shah suri part of my identity.. I would rather take my identity from the Dargah's in Dehli and Ajmer. These people are the ones who truly forged my identity and not royalty which for the most part after invasions was busy hunting rare animals and watching women dance. I certainly do NOT consider the Mughals as having anything to do with the identity of Indian Muslims although they did influence Indian gentry for a long time to come. It is sometimes lost on many and laughably so if you hear a Muslim Rajput idolizing Ghaznavi or Lodhi that many of their own ancestors probably were cut down by what were essentially Turkic peoples.
Yes, their influence is a big reason for the spread of the Muslim faith in India(less so from forced conversion but more so as the preachers were able to roam with more security as compared to before) but they were only part of the inception of these ideals and had very little impact on the cultural dimensions of say a keralite Muslim. The mistake with attempts to forge identities based on conquerors and invaders is that they were just that; aliens. The same goes for an identity based on "bhartism" or otherwise because it will be just alien to their beliefs too.

Indian Muslims hold a distinct identity that is separate from India and yet it is not. To try and sugar coat it for either purpose is only fooling others and themselves. Instead of celebrating it as a symbol of cultural and religious diversity in India, they are trying to apologize for it.

 

[Imran Khan]

yaar...koi muslim India mein kudh ko galib, yah mirza yah khan yah kuch bhi keh le toh kya woh maara jaayega?

did i say this ? jeena bhai means zamany ke sath jeena you misunderstood me bro

next step will be

we are EX-Brahmans -indian muslims mullahs

 

[illusion8]

Indian Muslims hold a distinct identity that is separate from India and yet it is not. To try and sugar coat it for either purpose is only fooling others and themselves. Instead of celebrating it as a symbol of cultural and religious diversity in India, they are trying to apologize for it.

That's an anomaly - something on the lines of what I said in my first post here - the eternal boat people. Nobody's stopping them from integrating like the other minorities in India. The only thing stopping them is their religion. For someone who thinks religion is more important than the state - he is essentially stateless.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Just to clarify are you saying that all Muslims are descendants of Ahmed Shah Durrani, Mir Chakar Khan Rind, Mahmud Ghaznavi and people who came with them? and there were no conversions (forcible or otherwise)

we have ruled this region for abt 1000 years, if we did that bolded thingy then none of yr non muslim population will be remaining. It was for the generosity of our leaders, emperors and Kings that even though we ruled u for 1000 years time but still there are more non muslims then muslims in yr country and region.

 

[illusion8]

did i say this ? jeena bhai means zamany ke sath jeena you misunderstood me bro

next step will be

we are EX-Brahmans -indian muslims mullahs

Which is true - muslims were Hindus before they were converted.

 

[SQ8]

That's an anomaly - something on the lines of what I said in my first post here - the eternal boat people. Nobody's stopping them from integrating like the other minorities in India. The only thing stopping them is their religion. For someone who thinks religion is more important than the state - he is essentially stateless.

That is a lack of understanding of that mentality rather than boat people. The idea has less to do with being isolated and more to do with caring for your fellow man. It was a well thought out psychological forging of ties and cross cultural alliances to put religion above ethnic or national ideals.

 

[Force-India]

Kashmir is not the only issue. The issue of peace resides within the reconciliation of northern India with Northern Pakistan.
Essentially both need to let go of the need to differentiate between each other to forge identities. That lies less with the people and more with the political powers. Who use such issues to forge their vote banks as this thread is also reflective of. The common man sans leadership has much lesser interest in who he hates as they need a vent for their frustration. To repeat the dialogue from the very unrelated but very true Munna Bhai MBBS the first dialgoue.. these people have so much crap in their lives that they are willing to take it out on anything that befits it.
Mumbai 26/11 being what it was, would still be forgotten faster if not for politicians and certain interests keeping it alive, just as 71 would be.. or all other ills between the two.

As I tell my friends in real life and not the majority that come from across the border on PDF who are utter idiots. The day you realize the absolute fruitlessness of the hatred between the two nations, between Hindus and Muslims in India... and all other issues...is the day you will understand my reason to discuss these issues and find amusement with them.

I agree with you. But your words, hatred between Hindus and Muslims in India i would say, no educated Hindu hates any fellow Muslim student/worker/etc. in India in cities. They don't even care to hate. We are not filled with hatred in childhood (read being different than him/her). It feels shameful to hate someone just because he follows other religion. Most people just don't care about being Hindus and Muslims in India, they just follow their culture taught at home. Problem comes when they are grouped in huge numbers. Then they follow their traditional hatred.

 

[PoKeMon]

We muslims have a distinct identity and are in no way Indians. Our legends are those of Ahmed Shah Durrani, Mir Chakar Khan Rind, Mahmud Ghaznavi among many others. The more recent laid back attitude of other muslims left in Indian occupied parts and their support to people like Kalam Azad is a threat to the entire well being of our people who must fight for their rights and ask the question why property taken from us in Hyderabad and Lucknow has not been returned to us since the partition.

My parents were born in Lucknow but they are Pakistani and Pakistan will and should forever be in the heart of every muslim left there. We are one body. You can cut the head but it will always belong to one body. We muslims should not become slaves of India specially since they are the killers of our people.

Arabian knight spotted.

 

[SQ8]

I agree with you. But your words, hatred between Hindus and Muslims in India i would say, no educated Hindu hates any fellow Muslim student/worker/etc. in India in cities. They don't even care to hate. We are not filled with hatred in childhood (read being different than him/her). It feels shameful to hate someone just because he follows other religion. Most people just don't care about being Hindus and Muslims in India, they just follow their culture taught at home. Problem comes when they are grouped in huge numbers. Then they follow their traditional hatred.

If you focus on the part where I mentioned "politicians". The educated Hindu/Muslims.. kids in college.. will eat from the same lunch box. The same goes for Pakistanis in many cases. But it is also within these ages when the difference between education and intellect is defined. Just because you have a degree from IIT does not mean you will not hate Muslims or Christians for conversions done 50 years go because your cousin or local Pandit said so or you read on an online forum.

 

[illusion8]

That is a lack of understanding of that mentality rather than boat people. The idea has less to do with being isolated and more to do with caring for your fellow man. It was a well thought out psychological forging of ties and cross cultural alliances to put religion above ethnic or national ideals.

Many countries were forged together in the 1940's including china, israel and a bunch of others, the identification with one's citizenship and nationality begins from that point. Sovereign states are a reality now and it doesn't depend on one's religion - (though religion is a criteria for many muslim states). Political Islam creates this anomaly. It creates a supra islamic body that is beyond any nation's borders and it's citizen's patriotism. Patriotism is only meant for Islam and not for the state. Which ...when I go back to earlier posts, based on the level of extremism and support is way more truer for pakistani muslims than indian muslims...who largely have chosen to remain in India (even when they have a choice) and adopt it's constitution and wish to uphold it.

 

[SQ8]

Many countries were forged together in the 1940's including china, israel and a bunch of others, the identification with one's citizenship and nationality begins from that point. Sovereign states are a reality now and it doesn't depend on one's religion - (though religion is a criteria for many muslim states). Political Islam creates this anomaly. It creates a supra islamic body that is beyond any nation's borders and it's citizen's patriotism. Patriotism is only meant for Islam and not for the state. Which ...when I go back to earlier posts, based on the level of extremism and support is way more truer for pakistani muslims than indian muslims...who largely have chosen to remain in India (even when they have a choice) and adopt it's constitution and wish to uphold it.

You seem to have ignored a lot of things in your example. China was forged based on communism and its unity with the Chinese races.. and Israel was formed entirely on the Idea of religious identity.. the very one who seem to decry.

 

[dray]

We muslims have a distinct identity and are in no way Indians. Our legends are those of Ahmed Shah Durrani, Mir Chakar Khan Rind, Mahmud Ghaznavi among many others. The more recent laid back attitude of other muslims left in Indian occupied parts and their support to people like Kalam Azad is a threat to the entire well being of our people who must fight for their rights and ask the question why property taken from us in Hyderabad and Lucknow has not been returned to us since the partition.

My parents were born in Lucknow but they are Pakistani and Pakistan will and should forever be in the heart of every muslim left there. We are one body. You can cut the head but it will always belong to one body. We muslims should not become slaves of India specially since they are the killers of our people.

If your parents were born in Lucknow then there are many Indians whose parents were born in Lahore or Dhaka........it's time to move on.

I am from one side a firangi mahali from chowk in Lucknow. We are extremely tolerant people. Don't mark our tolerance as subservience. If the Indian state tries to vanquish us we will do everything to break India into a thousand pieces. Muslims left there specially in the past have been vocal supporters of Pakistan. The changes are more recent. Ask my grand father who was a staunch support of the AIML, which later became PML.

You are not "us", not anymore. Please stop talking on behalf of the Indian Muslims.

For debate sake I will share my views on this a little further. 3 factors played a major role in destroying the loyalty of muslims left there towards Pakistan.

1) Muslims left there were directed to an alternate sphere of influence. They were imposed with an alien Hindustani culture and ideals. They did not grow up watching PTV patriotic dramas. This made the younger generation forget what our country Pakistan (as it was made for muslims left there too) meant. I mean clearly I ask the muslims left there what happens when India purges you as in Babri and Gujarat riots. The only place we will be able to escape to is Pakistan and thats exactly what our family did. My point is that having another sphere of influence and being subjected to Indian propaganda made muslims keen vassals repeating whatever the Hindutvas told them. I would ask Indians to ask any muslim what they think of Modi... he is a killer of thousands. But then there is this new phenomenon of slave muslims shaking hands with the same guy. Recently these same handshakers with Hindutvas have become representatives of muslims left there rather than Jinnah or Liaquat Ali Khan.

2) We migrants or mahajirs (I hate that term but due to lack of another am using this) began treating our muslims relatives left there as different. We always say for our travelling khalas or mamoos "you are going to India". we never say you are going to Lucknow-which is supposed to be part of Pakistan. In my family there has been an argument over Lucknow and Karachi even though the Muslim League was born in Lucknow. Simple thing is bhai, whether Lucknow is good or Karachi both are supposed to be treated as a part of Pakistan.

We should have treated muslims left there as a part and parcel of Pakistan. Many could be an asset in times of war with India. But our foreign policy has been one huge mess.

3) The break up of Pakistan and the establishment of a sovereign Bengal state. It proved that pakistan was breakable and also that muslims cannot live peacefully in one country, even when divided from India. I sympathize with this sentiment but at the same time know that Pakistan is the only hope for us-as it was for my parents and it received support from my grandparents

we have ruled this region for abt 1000 years, if we did that bolded thingy then none of yr non muslim population will be remaining. It was for the generosity of our leaders, emperors and Kings that even though we ruled u for 1000 years time but still there are more non muslims then muslims in yr country and region.

Muslims are getting killed in Pakistan on a regular basis, and here you are worrying about Indians; talk about misplaced priorities!

 

[illusion8]

You seem to have ignored a lot of things in your example. China was forged based on communism and its unity with the Chinese races.. and Israel was formed entirely on the Idea of religious identity.. the very one who seem to decry.

That was a given. This being about Indian muslims - I stuck with that.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Muslims are getting killed in Pakistan on a regular basis, and here you are worrying about Indians; talk about misplaced priorities!

and what has our situation got to do with our 1000 years rule in this region and our generosity with non muslims that today there r more non muslims then muslims in region?

 

[SecularNationalist]

So what i am too a indian by race ,my ancestors just accepted islam .I am a indian by race but a Pakistani by nationality. The same can be said about any american who is a Spanish,french etc by race but american by nationality.
I think the indian mullahs are kissing BJP aSSes too much these days.
I am too thankful to those arabs who introduced islam here otherwise i would still be worshiping a cow after putting as a red dot on my forehead