Mass protests sweep Gilgit Baltistan

[Informant]

As people of disputed territory they have our support.

Janu they fought you guys in 47/48 to be a part of us.



too late

 

[Peshwa]

The basis of my argument is quite simple actually - If the contention is that the people of GB and AJK don't want to be a part of Pakistan they wouldn't be joining the Pakistan Army in droves !

well then here is some interesting tit-bit:

"In February 2011, barely a month after a long phase of anti-india protests, nearly 10,000 youth participated in an army recruitment rally"

Source:
Army’s Recruitment Rally in Volatile Kashmir TownKashmir Latest News, Breaking News, Photos and Features | Free Press Kashmir

Well, they hate us, yet want to join the very army they hate and which they claim commits atrocities on them??!!!

Again, I state....separatism is but only a voice in the valley...NOT the only voice!

Likewise if the people of Occupied Kashmir where Muslim Separatism is the basis for Independence are not Separatists they would be joining the Indian Army in droves !

I have provided you with an example above to address this...

The fact that there were 29,000 Muslims in the Indian Army that is well above the million man mark in '06 with even by horrendously optimistic estimates were it to double in 2014 would make it an atrociously low figure doesn't seem to lend much credibility to your argument that there are considerable amounts of volunteers for the Indian Armed forces from Occupied Kashmir.

The argument isn't about what number of muslim recruits come from the rest of India....that's a whole different topic with reasons that vary...Im not going to get into that...

Nevertheless, my point stands....50% of the JKLI is muslim (19 battalions total)...a much higher % for the same in police and paramilitary which are all indigenous to Kashmir...
These are easily verifiable facts...you can check online..
Which basically lends credibility to my argument that if GB with a 9% total in your army (reasons for which could vary, and not necessarily Pakistani nationalism...but then same applies for JKLI as well) is an indication of their loyalty and affinity to Pakistan, then the same applies for the JKLI and India,..

 

[Armstrong]

well then here is some interesting tit-bit:

Source:
Army’s Recruitment Rally in Volatile Kashmir TownKashmir Latest News, Breaking News, Photos and Features | Free Press Kashmir

Well, they hate us, yet want to join the very army they hate and which they claim commits atrocities on them??!!!

Again, I state....separatism is but only a voice in the valley...NOT the only voice!


I have provided you with an example above to address this...

The fact that there were 29,000 Muslims in the Indian Army that is well above the million man mark in '06 with even by horrendously optimistic estimates were it to double in 2014 would make it an atrociously low figure doesn't seem to lend much credibility to your argument that there are considerable amounts of volunteers for the Indian Armed forces from Occupied Kashmir.

The argument isn't about what number of muslim recruits come from the rest of India....that's a whole different topic with reasons that vary...Im not going to get into that...

Nevertheless, my point stands....50% of the JKLI is muslim (19 battalions total)...a much higher % for the same in police and paramilitary which are all indigenous to Kashmir...
These are easily verifiable facts...you can check online..
Which basically lends credibility to my argument that if GB with a 9% total in your army (reasons for which could vary, and not necessarily Pakistani nationalism...but then same applies for JKLI as well) is an indication of their loyalty and affinity to Pakistan, then the same applies for the JKLI and India,..

That doesn't even make any sense !

The JKLI is a single paramilitary force absorbed into the IA like the NLI was for us; with 29,000 Muslims in the Indian Army (2006) which if even doubled wouldn't be more than 60,000 hardly lends any credibility whatsoever to the prognosis you seem to be presenting !

60,000 Muslims divided across an Army reaching the 1.5 million mark isn't going to end up with Muslims in Kashmir being well represented in the Indian Army by any stretch of the imagination !

 

[Peshwa]

The JKLI is a single paramilitary force absorbed into the IA like the NLI was for us; with 29,000 Muslims in the Indian Army (2006) which if even doubled wouldn't be more than 60,000 hardly lends any credibility whatsoever to the prognosis you seem to be presenting !

60,000 Muslims divided across an Army reaching the 1.5 million mark isn't going to end up with Muslims in Kashmir being well represented in the Indian Army by any stretch of the imagination !

Makes complete sense to me...

I provided you with an indication of the number of volunteers that showed up a month after anti-india protests....should give you an indication of the fact that separatist voices have not slowed down the interest Kashmiris have in joining the very force that they claim to hate!

Secondly...I strongly question your 3% figure for muslims in the Indian armed forces,....
No census has been allowed in the IA based on religion...Even the Sachar committee was rejected of this request..so please direct me towards an official GOI census that states this number for us to continue down this path...

I wouldn't be surprised if the number was lower than the % equivalent of muslims in India....I understand there is underrepresentation, but this 3% figure has been thrown around way too long without its authenticity questioned...

Do you really believe that the IA with massive recruitment efforts in Kashmir would just spend all this time and money and not recruit anybody?!! Especially when 10,000 local youth show up?!!!

 

[waz]

Do you really believe that the IA with massive recruitment efforts in Kashmir would just spend all this time and money and not recruit anybody?!! Especially when 10,000 local youth show up?!!!

I'm sure many of these guys are ethnic Dogras and folks from Ladakh. I very much doubt the participation of folks from the valley.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I'm sure many of these guys are ethnic Dogras and folks from Ladakh. I very much doubt the participation of folks from the valley.

You think Dogras and Ladakhis will come in droves to attend recruitment drives in Sopore or Ganderbal?

Secondly we don't have a reservation system for Muslims or any other group in the Armed Forces. You can suggest that to Anthony (our Hon'ble Defense Minister) and he will surely lap it up. Once we have that reservation perhaps we have to fire about 85% of the Sikhs, huge number of Buddhists and include Muslims. That would ensure a parallel projection of the general population proportion. Good idea sirjee.

 

[Peshwa]

I'm sure many of these guys are ethnic Dogras and folks from Ladakh. I very much doubt the participation of folks from the valley.

Please see the report I posted Waz...it claims the people are from the valley...and in some very sensitive areas....

I purposely chose to use a neutral paper so as to avoid people claiming the report as biased...

Let me know your thoughts...

 

[livingdead]

That doesn't even make any sense !

The JKLI is a single paramilitary force absorbed into the IA like the NLI was for us; with 29,000 Muslims in the Indian Army (2006) which if even doubled wouldn't be more than 60,000 hardly lends any credibility whatsoever to the prognosis you seem to be presenting !

60,000 Muslims divided across an Army reaching the 1.5 million mark isn't going to end up with Muslims in Kashmir being well represented in the Indian Army by any stretch of the imagination !

the J&K recruitment was not for muslims alone, quite few of them will be hindus and sikhs.
Huge percent of muslims live in UP and Bihar ( J&K has quite low population although muslim majority) and they traditionally dont join army or even govt jobs.

 

[Indischer]

You think Dogras and Ladakhis will come in droves to attend recruitment drives in Sopore or Ganderbal?

Sorry for being off-topic, but couldn't resist....Your Anantnag has been declared as a hypersensitive constituency.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Sorry for being off-topic, but couldn't resist....Your Anantnag has been declared as a hypersensitive constituency.

Common thing. Phones stopped working in the afternoon. Anantnag is not even called Anantnag for all practical purposes. The majority of the people have 'lovingly' named it Islamabad.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Oh I absolutely understand what the protest is about...
What you don't understand is that the report clearly states the AWC considers GB a disputed territory....while GBLA which is a different set of people claims to have appealed for integration...
My only contention here is that people of GB are not overwhelmingly into the idea of joining Pakistan...something you have been implying in your posts...

Oh No You Don`t understand what the protest is about .... You are just trying to pull things out of thin air ....

What you don`t understand (or may be don`t want to understand) is that the report does not state anything like what you are trying to claim here ...

No where in "Charter of Demands" of Awami Action Committe , Gilgit Baltistan is referred as "Occupied" or "Disputed" Territory .. .... The first seven demands are related to removal of different taxes , No load shedding etc. ... 8th point states that :

The international law of "No Taxation without Representation" should be applied to GB ..... And the ninth (and the last demand) is :

"The protection of GB frontiers must be ensured " ........... And you have somehow concluded that " people of GB are not overwhelmingly into the idea of joining Pakistan " ........ "Wet dreams" , I must say ...

The words like "occupied territory" and "disputed territory" are used by Syed Asad Hasan , a journalist , while explaining the reasons behind this protest to a western newspaper ... And he has used this term for Both Parts of Kashmir ; Pakistani and Indian ... And let me educate you , UN recognizes Kashmir as a "disputed" territory ....

Seriously?! It was in the 60s that Pakistan signed away the GB land to China which is what I am referring to....clearly you dropped the ball on that..
And this is exactly on point with the Kashmir dispute as GB was and will always be part of the erstwhile state of Kashmir when this feud began...
Until India gives up its claim on this land...we continue to be a party to all such discussions...whether you like it or not..

Well I was trying to avoid this question because it was not related to the topic ,

The last line advocated to the Chinese by the British was the Macartney-Macdonald line (1893). And that it also made sense as it was a geographical demarcation as well. The Indians upon independence jumped back to the Johnson line (1865) as the border. This was unnatural. The Indians had such little control and visibility past the natural geographical barriers that the Chinese built a 1200 km road in the fifties that India only found out about in 1958! China went to war with India on this in 1962 . The Chinese won and kept the borders as per Macartney-Macdonald line.

The region in question that Pakistan "allegedly" ceded to China (Trans Karakoram Tract) fell on the Chinese side as per the Macartney-Macdonald line. Thus for Pakistan it was the right decision to take as that was the line last communicated to the Chinese by the British and Pakistan after independence from the British was responsible for the treaties carried over.

Every authority on the subject abroad holds that Pakistan did not cede any land; on the contrary it was China which ceded to Pakistan 750 square miles of administered territory..!!!


And The Sino Pakistan border agreement of 1963 is provisional , The article six clearly states :

"The two parties have agreed that after the settlement of the Kashmir dispute between Pakistan and India, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the Government of the People's Republic of China on the boundary as described in Article. Two of the present agreement"

I think you have mistaken me for someone who cares for what you think when I write my views.....save the troll fatwa

Yeah ... Why would a troll care

 

[Armstrong]

Makes complete sense to me...

I provided you with an indication of the number of volunteers that showed up a month after anti-india protests....should give you an indication of the fact that separatist voices have not slowed down the interest Kashmiris have in joining the very force that they claim to hate!

Secondly...I strongly question your 3% figure for muslims in the Indian armed forces,....
No census has been allowed in the IA based on religion...Even the Sachar committee was rejected of this request..so please direct me towards an official GOI census that states this number for us to continue down this path...

I wouldn't be surprised if the number was lower than the % equivalent of muslims in India....I understand there is underrepresentation, but this 3% figure has been thrown around way too long without its authenticity questioned...

Do you really believe that the IA with massive recruitment efforts in Kashmir would just spend all this time and money and not recruit anybody?!! Especially when 10,000 local youth show up?!!!

You keep missing the point ad homineum because you keep harping on about the number of Kashmiris who showed up to join the very force they claim to hate when the contention isn't whether Kashmiris did or didn't show but weather the Muslims in Kashmir did or didn't show up as the whole call for independence revolves around Muslim Separatism !

If a Sikh or a Hindu from Jammu wishes to join the Indian Army - That means nothing in respect of the question of Muslim Separatism because he isn't asking for Independence anyhow; its the Muslim who is asking for it therefore his presence or absence in the Army lends an insight about what he thinks about the whole situation.

Indiatoday quoted the Army to have provided these figures in 2006 when asked by the Defense Ministry after the Airforce and the Navy had already provided their figures and I quote 'While the navy and the air force have already provided the data on the number of Muslims in their arms, the army did so only reluctantly after being asked to do so by the Ministry of Defense that it had 29,000 Muslim troops'

Sachar Committee: Congress minority agenda comes under scrutiny : NATION - India Today

And that figure has been quoted numerous times elsewhere from the Guardian to Dawn.

Even if it were doubled to 60,000 Muslims in the Indian Army and were it to be quite logically spread across units; one had to be absolutely daft to think that Muslims in Kashmir are well-represented in the Indian Army when they couldn't come to more than a few thousand at most in a State/Province with a Muslim population that is closer to 9 million.

 

[livingdead]

@Armstrong, the fact that lot of muslims from kashmir got recruited into army means they dont hate us as much neither do we see them as trouble makers as such who cant be in army.
I dont think israelis will find it easy to recruit palestinians for example.(another conflict so many compare with). Both side mistrusts other too much.
It does not mean there is no popular demand for azadi, nor does it mean muslims have fair reservation in the army.
It was not the aim of the exercise to recruit muslims (that would have to be done in bihar and UP to make any difference), the aim was to recruit more people from a disturbed area. The same way PA did in some of your own disturbed areas.

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong, the fact that lot of muslims from kashmir got recruited into army means they dont hate us as much neither do we see them as trouble makers as such who cant be in army.
I dont think israelis will find it easy to recruit palestinians for example.(another conflict so many compare with). Both side mistrusts other too much.
It does not mean there is no popular demand for azadi, nor does it mean muslims have fair reservation in the army.
It was not the aim of the exercise to recruit them, the aim was to recruit more people from a disturbed area. The same way PA did in some of your own disturbed areas.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that 'a lot of Muslims from Kashmir' got recruited into the Army when all Muslims within the Army aren't, even by optimistic projections of the 2006 figure, more than a 100,000 individuals in a 1.5 million large army nor are those Muslims concentrated in Kashmir and Kashmir alone but would be distributed across the many States of the Indian Union !

 

[livingdead]

How did you arrive at the conclusion that 'a lot of Muslims from Kashmir' got recruited into the Army when all Muslims within the Army aren't, even by optimistic projections of the 2006 figure, more than a 100,000 individuals in a 1.5 million large army nor are those Muslims concentrated in Kashmir and Kashmir alone but would be distributed across the many States of the Indian Union !

am not really sure I understood what you are saying here.
total of 7500 odd people were recruited in that rally if I remember correctly. I would presume most were muslims as it was done in muslim majority areas. I am not claiming all 7500 are muslims and even if they are that wont even dent the percentage in a big army.
I dont know about 100,000 figure. are you saying there are 100,000 muslims in IA? They must be from other places recruited over a period of time then, obviously not from J&K which has quite small population of muslims.(even though muslim majority)

Army is targetting disturbed areas for recruiting lower cadres, they do it in assam and other NE places too.