Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

[doidoi2]

By the way. Here's a thought to anyone from other countries reading our discussions about China. Be you from Philippines, India, Vietnam, US, where ever.

Note that though we may disagree on finer points with other Chinese, We are united in one point:
The territorial integrity of China.

We agree to the point of tolerating millions of deaths of our own people and decades of poverty to defend the integrity of China.

There is one very, very important point to take away from our discussions that I cannot stress enough as it relates to the South China Seas:

Do not challenge, or try to challenge, the territorial integrity of China. Not because the Chinese are all powerful and have an invincible military, but because most Chinese people, whether from HK, Taiwan (ROC), or China are indoctrinated from birth with the rape of the Chinese motherland from various powers. It's our number one shame that we seek to clear.

If any other countries try to challenge Chinese Territorial integrity... All I can say is good luck. Because the Chinese side WILL NOT BACK DOWN.

China CANNOT back down from the standoff. Because its people are united in their belief of integrity.

In fact, if the Chinese government relents, it will immediately lose credibility. THAT is the time when there will be a revolution. The Chinese government responsible for backing down will be taken out and egged. The military will take over.

You think you don't like the Chinese government now? Wait till you see the new one installed by a wave of Chinese Nationalism. It will be 10 times more aggressive and militant than the current Chinese central government.

That's why I think the Philippines are in a tough place. I don't think their leaders really thought of the implications of stirring the waters in the South China Sea. Rightly or wrongly, China's History has already made the choice of the Chinese government. China cannot back down, or else the consequences will be even more disastrous than people can imagine.

 

[jayron]

So you attribute the alleged "deaths" as due to incompetence, instead of malice.

Let's say I accept that these "deaths" occurred. Gambit said that "it's better to die of incompetence, than to die of malice" when Gotterdamerung and he were talking about who was worse, Nazis or India.

Since by your own admission, if Mao DID cause this very high number of deaths, then both Mao and GoI caused them due to incompetence, not malice. In that case, because the intent is the same, the only way to distinguish them is to count the number died.

Assuming you are right, China had 45 million "deaths", but India had 120 million deaths, both due to incompetence.

Indian failures is more due to just not doing much . Like not being there when needed. In China is just the opposite. Mao had a skewed ideology on what is good for his people and he just went on with it in spite of the devastating consequence. He was too arrogant to listen to saner voices and did not tolerate opposition. So I would argue his policies were more like Nazism. If your argument s that his original intention was not to kill 45 million people, I'd agree. But he certainly didn't care that 45 million died and would have continued if he were alive. So to tat extent he was evil.

India on the other hand just had a government which didn't care much. It certainly didn't bring miracles to people's lives. But didn't force them to do things that they didn't want to do and cause a torturous death either.

 

[below_freezing]

A lot of that was due to the resilience of the Chinese people. Regardless of who was in power, Chinese people will recover and prosper due to our ability to take hardships and work hard for a better future. The same goes for Japan and South Korea, and Taiwan and Hong Kong. How can you argue that his economic policies were good, considering that Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore's economy ran laps around China's economy? Singapore was poor, so was Japan and SK. SK even had the Korean war, right in its most prosperous section of the nation.

Let's give credit where credit is due. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore all had better economic policies than China. If China adopted capitalism earlier, we'd ALREADY be ahead of the US, not trying to catch up.

Look. Mao was good in the first parts of his reign. His worst years came in the Cultural Revolution. His disastrous policies to centralize farm production led directly to the starvation of millions. His Cultural Revolution wiped out all sense of morality in modern Chinese. Chinese society used to be a society of 礼 'Li -Manners.

We are now anything but. We don't queue properly. We don't respect others. Corruption is rampant.

I'm not saying Mao was all bad. He wasn't. I'm just saying that a lot of the policies he pursued was outright idiotic. If it wasn't for Deng, we'd still be in little grey Mao suits singing praise the Great Chairman songs. Kinda like how we deal with the North Koreans now. North Korea is really China, had China gone down the Mao's path of absolute communism.




Yeah, I agree. It's too bad Sun died early, otherwise the Chinese Civil War may not have happened and the Japanese may have been chased out a couple years earlier. Mao was undeniably a great figure then. I just wish he stepped down and let Zhou Enlai take over in his later years.

Taiwan was the ROC. The ROC had 37 years and didn't do much in those 37 years. Why did it do better after it went to Taiwan? Well, 23 million people is alot easier to manage than 1.3 billion. It's like how the worst NBA player could become a dominant college basketball star. Taking 1 million elite scientists, businessmen and military generals with 400 tons of gold also helped alot.

South Korea and Japan had US aid, we were sanctioned. In addition, Japan was a developed country in 1949. The difference of GDP per capita between the US and Japan at the time wasn't very large.

Chinese culture is about manners and Cultural Revolution wiped it out? It was ALL the Cultural Revolution? Don't queue properly? NEITHER DO AMERICANS. Corruption is rampant? It was rampant before. It was rampant in every dynasty and this is the only time in Chinese history it has NOT been so rampant. Centralizing farm production was bad, but land distribution was important. Otherwise, we'd end up with tenant farmers. Land has a tendency to aggregate. That's bad. Philippines and Latin America didn't have land reform and look where they are now.

Have you read the books about "old Shanghai"? Smoking opium, shitting on the streets, having concubines, foot binding and burning witches is manners? If you are Chinese, read 肖红's 《呼兰河传》and 茅盾's 《彩虹》 to get a better idea of what the "manners" during the glorious golden age of the ROC was.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Mao is a hero, it is perfectly normal that many anti-Chinese folks hate him.

 

[below_freezing]

Mao is a hero, it is perfectly normal that many anti-Chinese folks hate him.

Anyone that thinks Mao was worse than the ROC regime should read 肖红's 《呼兰河传》 to get an idea of how bad Chinese society was from 1840-1949. They really think that ROC's accomplishments on Taiwan, with intact railroad, telegraph, US aid, huge amounts of stolen gold and 1 million elite businessmen and generals, can compare with the problems faced with PRC after founding.

That book should be required reading.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Anyone that thinks Mao was worse than the ROC regime should read 肖红's 《呼兰河传》 to get an idea of how bad Chinese society was from 1840-1949.

That book should be required reading.

I only recognize Taiwan as part of China, but both KMT and DPP are something that we do not need it.

 

[below_freezing]

I only recognize Taiwan as part of China, but both KMT and DPP are something that we do not need it.

More people should read the writings of actual writers who lived through the ROC era. Lu Xun is not the only one.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

More people should read the writings of actual writers who lived through the ROC era. Lu Xun is not the only one.

KMT was an abomination since the beginning, even the incompetent Beiyang government did more good than those losers.

 

[Safriz]

"All is well that ends well"...

whatever Mao started,has ended in present day china where peace and prosperity prevails..and still going forward.

I can see what is happening here..The base of a nation is being attacked...
Fill somebody with shame about their origin..make them confused to an extent that they lose their identity and become nobody..
Happening with Muslims these days..Hope Chinese wont fall in this well known trap.

 

[below_freezing]

KMT was an abomination in the beginning, even the incompetent Beiyang government did more good than those losers.

I pity the idiots that think ROC was greatest and all of China's problems are due to the Cultural Revolution China's problems are due to some bad aspects of traditional Chinese culture, and even the Cultural Revolution just brought out the worst in traditional Chinese culture.

I also pity the idiots that think "capitalism" was the system used by Japan. Japan was a command economy.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I pity the idiots that think ROC was greatest and all of China's problems are due to the Cultural Revolution China's problems are due to some bad aspects of traditional Chinese culture, and even the Cultural Revolution just brought out the worst in traditional Chinese culture.

I also pity the idiots that think "capitalism" was the system used by Japan. Japan was a command economy.

All those KMT losers can only find the excuse to bash CPC as a puppet of USSR.

But remember, it was KMT who sold the Outer Mongolia to USSR, not PRC.

And i have to say the pragmatism of CPC is the greatest reason why China still survives and stays strong, because CPC only wanted to receive of USSR in order to get into power, but they had no desire to be a permanent follower of USSR.

However, KMT was destined to be a permanent servant of USA.

If it wasn't the existence of DPP, CPC should never take a look at those losers, again DPP was created thanked to their godfather Chiang the bald dictator.

 

[neutral_person]

He changed China from a slum to a modern state.
He changed the Chinese from a drug-ridden and weak society to a symbol of collective responsibility to the state.

It is always said that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I'd say even if this over-inflated figure is taken to be true, it brought much more benefits for China than disadvantages, in the long run.

Say that to the 45 million that were killed. Any country can become rich if their method of gaining wealth is simply kill off the poor. If India decided to kill off the poorest 10% of our country(including people living in slums), then we would be a pretty rich country ourselves. Same with Pakistan or any country really. Usually nations try to lift people out of poverty. Mao just killed the poor because they were too much of an embarrassment to the Chinese economy.

This is exactly what will happen in India if the Maoists/Naxalites gain power in India.

 

[doidoi2]

Taiwan was the ROC. The ROC had 37 years and didn't do much in those 37 years. Why did it do better after it went to Taiwan? Well, 23 million people is alot easier to manage than 1.3 billion. It's like how the worst NBA player could become a dominant college basketball star. Taking 1 million elite scientists, businessmen and military generals with 400 tons of gold also helped alot.

South Korea and Japan had US aid, we were sanctioned. In addition, Japan was a developed country in 1949. The difference of GDP per capita between the US and Japan at the time wasn't very large.

Chinese culture is about manners and Cultural Revolution wiped it out? It was ALL the Cultural Revolution? Don't queue properly? NEITHER DO AMERICANS. Corruption is rampant? It was rampant before. It was rampant in every dynasty and this is the only time in Chinese history it has NOT been so rampant. Centralizing farm production was bad, but land distribution was important. Otherwise, we'd end up with tenant farmers. Land has a tendency to aggregate. That's bad. Philippines and Latin America didn't have land reform and look where they are now.

Have you read the books about "old Shanghai"? Smoking opium, shitting on the streets, having concubines, foot binding and burning witches is manners? If you are Chinese, read 肖红's 《呼兰河传》and 茅盾's 《彩虹》 to get a better idea of what the "manners" during the glorious golden age of the ROC was.

nope. ROC was equally incompetent. Especially at retaining territory. ROC was corrupt, its people were idiotic. They didn't have the will of the people, that's why they lost. There is no golden age of ROC. China had a political battle between idiots and misguided peasants.

The fact of the matter is though... China's economy undoubtedly did worse than any other East Asian Economy. That part is not up for debate. You can come up with excuses all you want, it doesn't change the facts one bit.

Look at GDP numbers.

China ~$6k per capita
Japan ~40k
South Korea ~$20k
Singapore ~$40k

You can't argue with numbers.

Fail is fail. We should be glad that the PRC stopped failing. Remember, the PRC has much more resources at its disposal than any of the 3 countries. The failure of the economy is directly attributable to communist practices. The revival is directly attributable to turning away from a communist economic system.

Again, Mao's mixed. He's not a saint. If anything, Deng should be worshipped in Mao's place. He brought China out of becoming another North Korea.

 

[Wright]

Good thing Chinese immediate neighbours are economic giants who keep China in check.

"All is well that ends well"...


Fill somebody with shame about their origin..make them confused to an extent that they lose their identity and become nobody..
Happening with Muslims these days..Hope Chinese wont fall in this well known trap.

Happened to your countrymen long ago. Mr "Abdul ibn Waleed Querashi"

 

[shuttler]

nope.
Look at GDP numbers.

China ~$6k per capita
Japan ~40k
South Korea ~$20k
Singapore ~$40k

You can't argue with numbers.

the per capita above is a cheat. you need to compare like with like, apple to apple. bring out the gdp per capita of comparable sizes of population from Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen ...then the comparison will explain something!

Usually nations try to lift people out of poverty. Mao just killed the poor because they were too much of an embarrassment to the Chinese economy.

This is exactly what will happen in India if the Maoists/Naxalites gain power in India.

I dont think Mao ordered the killing of the poor! dont blow hot air here.
the case of neglect plus the immense insurgencies that are devastating in india are exactly the best fit for what you described:
indian government has been killing your people through your brutal military crackdowns on the rebellious POOR people. They are poor and oppressed before they're turned into Naxalites. Not the other way round. Indian government also kills your people due to mis-management. You have misplaced your priorities! People cannot consume rocket fuels!

Mao died in 1976! This is 2012! The difference: 36 years - india is gradually miring deeper into the thick of a civil war!