Making Gripen fighters in India not favoured by IAF

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Swedish defence major Saab plans to Make its Gripen fighter in India has roadblock with stiff resistance coming from Indian Air force said well-informed sources close to idrw.org. IAF is not in favour of ordering 4.5+ Gen fighter jet, even though SAAB has offered India technical help in the development of indigenous AMCA 5th generation fighter aircraft in lieu of orders for its Gripen fighters which lost out of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender in 2011 which was won by French Rafale fighter jets.

At present India is negotiating with France for procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets out of 126 requested by Indian Air Force under Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tender and Defence minister Parrikar already has confirmed that by end of this year another vendor will be selected who will make up to 90 fighter jets in India with active participation from Private sector company with major transfer of technology .

Saabs Gripen which belongs to same class as indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is finding no takers in IAF which now considers Tejas a better product compared to Gripen due to endless customization options offered by the indigenous fighter jet for which IAF has already placed first mass order for 106 jets with upgraded Avionics over previously 20 already ordered and according to many defence analyst numbers will finally touch 300 + with production line chunking out upgraded LCA -Tejas over next few years which will replace all retiring Mig-21s and Mig27s and is clearly not interested in placing orders for aircraft in same class as LCA .

American Aerospace giant Boeing and Lockheed Martin both are aggressively pitching upgraded F-16 and F-18 SH fighter jets under Make in India and have agreed to set up a new production line in India if ordered by Indian Air Force. Russia too is offering its Mig-35 fighter jets but the company spokesperson confirmed to idrw.org previously that there have been no official back channel talks over the sale of Mig-35 with India.

Both American legacy fighter aircraft F-16 and F-18 will finally end their production run by 2020 in their US facilities and both companies are keen to transfer their production line to India to meet India’s requirements. Defence analyst Ranesh Rajan believes India is trying to leverage best possible collaboration of US companies in the development of AMCA, Naval LCA and new jet engines for the AMCA.

Making Gripen fighters in India not favoured by IAF

 

[CHD]

Modi term will be over in discussion what to Make in india

 

[kmc_chacko]

finally IAF understanding advantage of having of Tejas.

 

[Skull and Bones]

LCA is ideally replacing 3 forms of platform in Indian Air Force arsenal, Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar to some extent. Less platforms, less worries.

Keeping commonality of engine in mind, F-18 SH makes the most sense for additional aircrafts.

 

[kmc_chacko]

Modi term will be over in discussion what to Make in india

Ground reality of Modis Make in India project are totally different than you think.

It has given a push to Private Sector to collaborate with international defense companies for manufacturing products for MoD. Which was not allowed earlier as PSUs were not allowed that saying security threat to India. But since UPA II there was a general sense that PSUs are not driven by time bound project and lot of money wasted due to non committal towards projects e.g., LCA, Arjun & Guns, which made a way for GoI to call upon Private companies like, M&M, L&T, Reliance, TATA & Bharath Forge to form new entity to taken on monopoly of PSUs.

This had multiple implication M&M tied with BAE systems,Reliance with Rosoboronexport, TATA with Airbus which forced PSU companies to form their own group and to offer time bound programmes. IAF which not ready to accept 20 fighters until few years back now asks for 8 sq in 8 years.

I know it has been quite a late step but it is the right step towards self sufficiency and indigenisation. I am happy with that and every Indian should be.

 

[litman]

i guess PAF would also like to see tejas in IAF colors rather then grippen.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Light category is only about LCA tejas and in future more of its variants.. Nothing will be done to threaten Tejas from the likes of Gripen and F16s...Its something we all have said time and again but there is a sustained media campaign from both Saab and LM to showcase their jets and kill the future of Tejas program..

Whatever be the case we should keep up the developmental work of Tejas platform and take it forward from MK1A to Mk2 and so on... Its a necessity for us and we have to make sure Light category is completely about tejas only or any other Indian jet made from scratch like MK2 ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK
Even though source is IDRW still it seems IAF does not want Gripen.. Something all of us said time and again..

I remember here what @MilSpec said that neither the Gripen nor the teens will ever be bought by IAF and IN..

Yet the amount of advertising campaign showed desperation of highest order...

@Ankit Kumar
See these lines quoted from above

Saabs Gripen which belongs to same class as indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is finding no takers in IAF which now considers Tejas a better product compared to Gripen due to endless customization options offered by the indigenous fighter jet for which IAF has already placed first mass order for 106 jets with upgraded Avionics over previously 20 already ordered and according to many defence analyst numbers will finally touch 300 + with production line chunking out upgraded LCA -Tejas over next few years which will replace all retiring Mig-21s and Mig27s and is clearly not interested in placing orders for aircraft in same class as LCA



.

You remember this

IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

i said about 15-20 squdrons at 1/3rd ratio
19 squadrons = 19x 16 = 304 Jets

So full squadron strength = 19x 3 = 57 squadrons

Assume we retire all the Migs and M2ks and Jags

MKI we know will become 312 or 19.5 squadron.. round it up to 19
Assume FGFA = 3 squadrons

so the gap is 57-19-19-3= 16 squadrons or 16x16 = 256 jets thats to be shared in medium category for both Rafales and AMCA.

At present based on Darin 3 upgrade its 63 Jags + 49 upgraded M2K + 50 odd Mig29s ~ 11 sqds which are to be phased out in next 10-15 years within which we have to procure their replacements in the same category and roles.

Looks like we are heading for a plan of 57-60 squadrons by 2030 looking at such numbers.

 

[knight11]

i guess PAF would also like to see tejas in IAF colors rather then grippen.

You can take few squardon of Grippen, with SAAB help in upgrading JF-17 + AESA + IRST + Avionics

 

[litman]

You can take few squardon of Grippen, with SAAB help in upgrading JF-17 + AESA + IRST + Avionics

i guess it's better to upgrade the thunder with advanced avionics rather then buying another jet of almost same capability

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Light category is only about LCA tejas and in future more of its variants.. Nothing will be done to threaten Tejas from the likes of Gripen and F16s.Jagusrsomething we all have said time and again but there is a sustained media campaign from both Saab and LM to showcase their jets and kill the future of Tejas program..

Whatever be the case we should keep up the developmental work of Tejas platform and take it forward from MK1A to Mk2 and so on... Its a necessity for us and we have to make sure Light category is completely about tejas only or any other Indian jet made from scratch like MK2 ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK
Even though source is IDRW still it seems IAF does not want Gripen.. Something all of us said time and again..

I remember here what @MilSpec said that neither the Gripen nor the teens will ever be bought by IAF and IN..

Yet the amount of advertising campaign showed desperation of highest order...

@Ankit Kumar
See these lines quoted from above


You remember this


View attachment 296184
IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

i said about 15-20 squdrons at 1/3rd ratio
19 squadrons = 19x 16 = 304 Jets

So full squadron strength = 19x 3 = 57 squadrons

Assume we retire all the Migs and M2ks and Jags

MKI we know will become 312 or 19.5 squadron.. round it up to 19
Assume FGFA = 3 squadrons

so the gap is 57-19-19-3= 16 squadrons or 16x16 = 256 jets thats to be shared in medium category for both Rafales and AMCA.

At present based on Darin 3 upgrade its 63 Jags + 49 upgraded M2K + 50 odd Mig29s ~ 11 sqds which are to be phased out in next 10-15 years within which we have to procure their replacements in the same category and roles.

Looks like we are heading for a plan of 57-60 squadrons by 2030 looking at such numbers.

Yes that's correct except that M2Ks will go in 10 years. Till now only 2 have been upgraded, 4 more in France to get upgraded and rest will be done here. Don't be surprised if they serve us beyond 2035.

61 Jaguar , 66 Mig29s... yes after 10 years they will start seeing retirement of these.

In a two front war , according to me....we should at least maintain 1:1 ratio.

Pakistan can put up about 450 combat jets and China can easily put up there 1/3rd fleet , near 500 jets to take care of their southern flank.

Means we need near ~55 squadrons .

In an ideal case we should have ~350 upgraded air superiority flankers, supported by Mig29s, near 300 Rafale/Mirage2000/Jaguars to take care of air to ground needs and near 250 Tejas to take care of the lower end.

As I said earlier that if we are clear about having an " Indian Aerospace industry capable of delivering fighter jets ", we need to stick with Tejas over anything else.

Rafale should be done quickly. And we need to now focus on developing subsystems like radar( which we are already doing ), EO systems, ECM, Engine etc.

Once we have these, we can truly stop relying on Russia or France for our Air force.

 

[knight11]

i guess it's better to upgrade the thunder with advanced avionics rather then buying another jet of almost same capability

Janab are you sure for Grippen NG

which JF-17 Block ?? == Grippen NG and could you post the link of Quwa page which claims that.

 

[Taygibay]

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK
Even though source is IDRW still it seems IAF does not want Gripen.. Something all of us said time and again..

I remember here what @MilSpec said that neither the Gripen nor the teens will ever be bought by IAF and IN..

Yet the amount of advertising campaign showed desperation of highest order...

Of flocking course, they won't be bought if the IAF has its way!
Some fantrolls ( a new invasive species MII ) keep forgetting what a phase is in the always on-going
development of an air force through the years.

Everybody with a long enough passion for mil avia knows that there is a reduction in number of fighter
types happening. All AFs that can do it are trying to rely on as few types as possible to reduce costs
as in less maintenance and commonality of spares for their fleets.

This was made possible in the late 80's early 90's with new designs acceding to maturity and technology
growing by leaps and bounds. The most important new tech brick was found in FBW and it later turning
digital and the second as the better comms allowing better control of better sensors generalized onboard.
Engines are third having developed marvels of manufacturing processes for the new materials. All of the
above and modern design tools unified under the boom of consumer electronics that exponentially drove
up the computing power to size/weight ratio. ( And no, full stealth is not as important, then nor maybe even now, sorry! )

For detailing, let's understand that types require different :
Parts/qualified personnel/pilot formation/etc
and that if you have 1000 AC in your airforce with 8 types, any buy will if each type is even total 125 units
whereas if you have 3 types it goes to 333 ( and a 1/3 ... OMG! how do they do that ) and with only two to 500 each.
Bigger buys equal bigger rebates or if you will, lower cost per piece.

I am entirely confident that the IAF knows that and included this into their preferences for new materials.
They want a three tier fighter type structure whenever possible!
The speed at which that happens however is not under their control but in the hands of what they inherited
and more so those of all the conflicting interests colliding above their head. Fanboys will reduce this list by
extracting their faves from it or concentrating on a given villain or two, but it goes long in reality :

GoI, all subsets thereof such as finance and defense ministries and committees everywhere as well as all
in any way influenced by the decisions regardless of their place in the results or competing for it ( ex. HAL & DRDO )
down to individuals, all vendors and all of their governments, anyone slated for participation at any point as
well as the media even blogs from anywhere but especially Indian of course and enemies whose own choices
may influence those befalling to the IAF; they all play a role.

The first brick in the new structure was the Su-30 MKI. It remains a so-so achievement ( sic ) for the production
aspect of the program but the fighter itself is universally recognized as a resounding success that literally opened
exports for the Russian maker. They should thank India for it IMHoO!
The second brick was supposed to be the MMRCA result.
The third brick was supposed to be the TEJAS.

MKI is not going anywhere. The GoI is right to rely on it for numbers until the other 2 finally come to fruition.
Except that this marvel is heavy, that ac use & maintenance follows weight so that it costs too much over time
to have this one type only.

The other two now need to hatch to take off the burden. And I do mean both and now so that arresting falling
numbers can happen.

The LCA is the primary target here due to its indigenous program nature. Even unfinished and to be fixed, it
is still enough to replace the oldest MiGs and should do so. Deciding on this will limit vagrancy of thoughts
for good and stabilize the lowest tier for a while as well as redirect the national effort towards the future. ( Regroup? )

The post-MMRCA must be re-aligned. It was years back when it gained that additional M, remember? That
letter standing for medium was added to hike the buy into 2nd tier either due to tactical preference of the IAF
or in order to protect the Tejas that had gained teenage fat, both if you ask me. Today, it is the sensical appli-
cation of that choice that must be re-centered to take account of the lost procurement years and LCA problems.

In that sense, anyone calling for a line of foreign fighters to be added must remember that it should :
-Not impinge in any way on the LCA class / tier;
-Best way to achieve this is to pick from MMRCA selection built on that premise as we saw;
-That means no MiG-35, Gripen, F-16 or F-18 with a caveat on the latter due to weight;
-That it should place in-between the other two tiers on all other aspects save one.

The last line is essential : more numbers than LCA if less than SU, more TOT than LCA
built around so many imported elements if only in processes if not necessarily a full line
from scratch as the MKI, etc ( all of which may change over time BTW ) but in exchange, more abilities
per kilo than either to rake some of the high end duties off both and up-to-date means of
war to keep up with the Joneses, be these Green, Yellow or Red White and Blue!

That's it! That's what the IAF needs and wants! Never mind which fighter from wherever
is chosen, it must fit those criteria and it must happen now!

Just do it? And GL, Tay.

 

[Archie]

LCA can replace Mig21

Not sure about Mig27 and Jaguars

Today we have 6 sqds of Mig21 , 4 Sqds of Mig27 and 6 Sqds of Jaguars

Barring 57 Jaguars inducted after yr 1997 , remaining will scraped by 2024

We need 120+ mmrca to hold the fort

We should have gone for the Super Hornet

 

[MilSpec]

Light category is only about LCA tejas and in future more of its variants.. Nothing will be done to threaten Tejas from the likes of Gripen and F16s...Its something we all have said time and again but there is a sustained media campaign from both Saab and LM to showcase their jets and kill the future of Tejas program..

Whatever be the case we should keep up the developmental work of Tejas platform and take it forward from MK1A to Mk2 and so on... Its a necessity for us and we have to make sure Light category is completely about tejas only or any other Indian jet made from scratch like MK2 ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK
Even though source is IDRW still it seems IAF does not want Gripen.. Something all of us said time and again..

I remember here what @MilSpec said that neither the Gripen nor the teens will ever be bought by IAF and IN..

Yet the amount of advertising campaign showed desperation of highest order...

@Ankit Kumar
See these lines quoted from above


You remember this


View attachment 296184
IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

i said about 15-20 squdrons at 1/3rd ratio
19 squadrons = 19x 16 = 304 Jets

So full squadron strength = 19x 3 = 57 squadrons

Assume we retire all the Migs and M2ks and Jags

MKI we know will become 312 or 19.5 squadron.. round it up to 19
Assume FGFA = 3 squadrons

so the gap is 57-19-19-3= 16 squadrons or 16x16 = 256 jets thats to be shared in medium category for both Rafales and AMCA.

At present based on Darin 3 upgrade its 63 Jags + 49 upgraded M2K + 50 odd Mig29s ~ 11 sqds which are to be phased out in next 10-15 years within which we have to procure their replacements in the same category and roles.

Looks like we are heading for a plan of 57-60 squadrons by 2030 looking at such numbers.

Re-engine Jags with Kaveri @50KN a piece. It can become a potent platform.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Light category is only about LCA tejas and in future more of its variants.. Nothing will be done to threaten Tejas from the likes of Gripen and F16s...Its something we all have said time and again but there is a sustained media campaign from both Saab and LM to showcase their jets and kill the future of Tejas program..

Whatever be the case we should keep up the developmental work of Tejas platform and take it forward from MK1A to Mk2 and so on... Its a necessity for us and we have to make sure Light category is completely about tejas only or any other Indian jet made from scratch like MK2 ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Vauban @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK
Even though source is IDRW still it seems IAF does not want Gripen.. Something all of us said time and again..

I remember here what @MilSpec said that neither the Gripen nor the teens will ever be bought by IAF and IN..

Yet the amount of advertising campaign showed desperation of highest order...

@Ankit Kumar
See these lines quoted from above


You remember this


View attachment 296184
IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

i said about 15-20 squdrons at 1/3rd ratio
19 squadrons = 19x 16 = 304 Jets

So full squadron strength = 19x 3 = 57 squadrons

Assume we retire all the Migs and M2ks and Jags

MKI we know will become 312 or 19.5 squadron.. round it up to 19
Assume FGFA = 3 squadrons

so the gap is 57-19-19-3= 16 squadrons or 16x16 = 256 jets thats to be shared in medium category for both Rafales and AMCA.

At present based on Darin 3 upgrade its 63 Jags + 49 upgraded M2K + 50 odd Mig29s ~ 11 sqds which are to be phased out in next 10-15 years within which we have to procure their replacements in the same category and roles.

Looks like we are heading for a plan of 57-60 squadrons by 2030 looking at such numbers.

We should have gone for the Super Hornet

It didn't meet the IAF's technical criteria.