Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm

[IND151]

No less than 100 Rafales will be ordered.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I am not sure regarding that number. I think India would not go beyond another odd 30 taking the total to 60 to 65. I guess this was the number suggested by some before the 36 was announced

This doesn't make sense , the DM has stated follow on Rafales would be built in India- it would never be economically feasible to set up a production line for just 30 or so units. Any follow-on unit order to be built in India is going to be very large (100+ units) and the article has alluded to that.

 

[IND151]

IAF would definitely need more planes. They would have chosen 0 rafales rather than having a mere 36 of them. So, expect the govt to find a way to buy atleast another 100 of them.

Thats what I am saying.

Buying just 36 Rafales wont make sense as during coming decade Mig 21, Mig 27 and Jaguars will be retired.

The Rafale will need to reoplace retired fighters (though large number of Mig 21s will be replaced by LCAs.)

@Ind4Ever knows the same thing i had said a day back. The economic times article along with PSengupta seems to echo that. Teh vibe of all this was from the Hollande interview post visiting Rafale facility published yesterday by french papers. He terms that india "trusts" us. and said production in india is under discussion.
I also said it would be assmbled via kits and conrtium is rumoured to have Reliance but today the other name Mahindra is also touted. PSK says production rate is 14 per year and the declaration under Make in India would happen soon

@sancho @Abingdonboy Perhaps the offset clause as i said before would be 30% not 50% thereby foregoing critical TOT which will reduce the price component as well as initial investment needed to produce hi tech parts. Ultimately the defence ecosystem would grow much lesser than 50% offset clause but its a more rational approach then to be in a "vortex"

Source?

 

[thesolar65]

Which Private company of India is financially sound/technically somewhat sound to have this kind of deal. Please name at least two such companies. Also if not one then two can form a consortium with Dassault. I mean Tata and Reliance have financially sound back ground. But L&T is technically sound than formers.

@Abingdonboy @kaykay @sancho @anant_s @Guynextdoor2 @PARIKRAMA @Koovie @SR-91 @Ind4Ever @IND151 @ito @OrionHunter

 

[ito]

This doesn't make sense , the DM has stated follow on Rafales would be built in India- it would never be economically feasible to set up a production line for just 30 or so units. Any follow-on unit order to be built in India is going to be very large (100+ units) and the article has alluded to that.

In my opinion, India would totally forgo manufacturing Rafale in India. It might order more Rafale (30 to 40 max) but they would be built in France and would be delivered in flying condition or at most the kits would be assembled.

The 'make in India; is I guess more to do with AMCA, where French might contribute.

 

[anant_s]

Which Private company of India is financially sound/technically somewhat sound to have this kind of deal. Please name at least two such companies. Also if not one then two can form a consortium with Dassault. I mean Tata and Reliance have financially sound back ground. But L&T is technically sound than formers.

@Abingdonboy @kaykay @sancho @anant_s @Guynextdoor2 @PARIKRAMA @Koovie @SR-91 @Ind4Ever @IND151 @ito

HAL
Tata Aerospace
(in that order)

 

[ito]

Which Private company of India is financially sound/technically somewhat sound to have this kind of deal. Please name at least two such companies. Also if not one then two can form a consortium with Dassault. I mean Tata and Reliance have financially sound back ground. But L&T is technically sound than formers.

@Abingdonboy @kaykay @sancho @anant_s @Guynextdoor2 @PARIKRAMA @Koovie @SR-91 @Ind4Ever @IND151 @ito

L&T is better than Tata and Reliance

 

[Abingdonboy]

In my opinion, India would totally forgo manufacturing Rafale in India. It might order more Rafale (30 to 40 max) but they would be built in France and would be delivered in flying condition or at most the kits would be assembled.

The 'make in India; is I guess more to do with AMCA, where French might contribute.

I don't think so, look at the DM's interview to NDTV, he seemed pretty keen to emphasise that "Make in India" had not been compromised by this 36 order and that was separate to the orders the IAF may place for Rafales in the future that are subject to govt-govt talks as we speak.

It simply won't be feasible to have a Rafale fleet under 90-100.

Which Private company of India is financially sound/technically somewhat sound to have this kind of deal. Please name at least two such companies. Also if not one then two can form a consortium with Dassault. I mean Tata and Reliance have financially sound back ground. But L&T is technically sound than formers.

@Abingdonboy @kaykay @sancho @anant_s @Guynextdoor2 @PARIKRAMA @Koovie @SR-91 @Ind4Ever @IND151 @ito

TATA and L&T have to be the frontrunners in any such list- both are involved in defence matters already and have a good track record. Mahindra are a very small player in the defence sector and Reliance are totally unproven and would be my last bet.

 

[thesolar65]

HAL
Tata Aerospace
(in that order)

Except HAL no Private company has the infrastructure. I mean if one or two combined companies are selected then they need land, super structures, Airfields, and what not. Plus a coagulation of Indian vendors who will supply quality products. It is a nightmare and will take more time. Of course unless Govt. forces HAL to sell some of their assets.

@Abingdonboy

 

[Ind4Ever]

Which Private company of India is financially sound/technically somewhat sound to have this kind of deal. Please name at least two such companies. Also if not one then two can form a consortium with Dassault. I mean Tata and Reliance have financially sound back ground. But L&T is technically sound than formers.

@Abingdonboy @kaykay @sancho @anant_s @Guynextdoor2 @PARIKRAMA @Koovie @SR-91 @Ind4Ever @IND151 @ito

L&T and Reliance !!! For this deal

 

[ito]

I don't think so, look at the DM's interview to NDTV, he seemed pretty keen to emphasise that "Make in India" had not been compromised by this 36 order and that was separate to the orders the IAF may place for Rafales in the future that are subject to govt-govt talks as we speak.

It simply won't be feasible to have a Rafale fleet under 90-100.

Yes, but cost of $25 billion is too much. I don't know whether India would spend $25 billion on Rafale and in process let AMCA program suffer.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Except HAL no Private company has the infrastructure. I mean if one or two combined companies are selected then they need land, super structures, Airfields, and what not. Plus a coagulation of Indian vendors who will supply quality products. It is a nightmare and will take more time. Of course unless Govt. forces HAL to sell some of their assets.

@Abingdonboy

The likes of TATA and L&T have DEEP pockets- they will invest in all of the above IF they secure a deal such as this they are both VERY hungry to start getting involved in more substantial defence projects.

Yes, but cost of $25 billion is too much. I don't know whether India would spend $25 billion on Rafale and in process let AMCA program suffer.

Lol, the DM has repeatedly touted a figure of around $15 billion for 126 Rafales in the past week- any figure above this is pure nonsense my friend. Anyway any such price is misleading, let's see what govt-govt talks yield, the PM stated the deal for 36 was concluded on VERY good terms so there is scope for "sweetners" to make the deal more attractive.

 

[anant_s]

Except HAL no Private company has the infrastructure. I mean if one or two combined companies are selected then they need land, super structures, Airfields, and what not. Plus a coagulation of Indian vendors who will supply quality products. It is a nightmare and will take more time. Of course unless Govt. forces HAL to sell some of their assets.

There is another way of looking at it. Suppose government allows private industry to participate, we can expect investment from private companies and they can build competencies. & it need not be one particular area example BHEL and L&T (having experience in pressure vessel and turbines) can manufacture the engines, TATA Aerospace can contribute towards airframes, Bharat forge for undercarriage, BEL/ECIL towards avionics, Godrej /MTAR?BHEL in critical CNC machining, Brahmos corporation for composites etc. That way no single company will have to create a single facility for complete manufacturing of a plane (in fact they can expand existing infrastructure to accommodate new project). HAL can be final assembler along with one or more companies or a JV.
With such small steps, slowly in about a decade or two we can create an industrial complex along with several ancillary units to take up more complex projects in future.

 

[thesolar65]

Friends, Off the topic :

I am having hot wife made/make in home Chicken Pakoda right now. Any body hungry and in this thread can ask for it and I will send it right away!!

 

[ito]

The likes of TATA and L&T have DEEP pockets- they will invest in all of the above IF they secure a deal such as this they are both VERY hungry to start getting involved in more substantial defence projects.


Lol, the DM has repeatedly touted a figure of around $15 billion for 126 Rafales in the past week- any figure above this is pure nonsense my friend. Anyway any such price is misleading, let's see what govt-govt talks yield, the PM stated the deal for 36 was concluded on VERY good terms so there is scope for "sweetners" to make the deal more attractive.

I am not convinced by $15 billion, but hope you are true.

Friends, Off the topic :

I am having hot wife made/make in home Chicken Pakoda right now. Any body hungry and in this thread can ask for it and I will send it right away!!

Envy you. My parents are in US, I cooked myself just.rice and dal