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sir Allah says follow Allah and his rasool saw and it says this several time and Allah doesn't even tell the method of salah which is also calls nama/ it also doesn't tell about zakat and it also doesn't give detail ff most other orders those orders and details are in hadees and you are understanding the meaning of complete wrong sir basic concept is compete sir and munafiqeen and kharjis used to deny hadees and hazrat Muhammad saw those who were sahabas followed hadees Mr ally in Quran orders to follow hazrat Muhammad saw along with him I mean Allah


When you follow Quran, you are following Rasul automatically.

Who brought Quran to us? huh? tell me who brought Quran to us?

It was Quran that Rasul pbuh left for us in his lifetime.
He forbade not to collect his sayings. Because Rasul pbuh knew that his sayings are temporary and Qruan is for\ever.

As I said,

Allah swt doesn't care exactly how you meditate (salah) or how much you pay in charity. He swt just asks us to meditate and give charity. That's all.

The exact ways and amounts are to be decided in a given time.

Even Rasul pbuh didn't meditate (salah) in one set way.

mediation (prayer) method was only fixed only in the time of 4 Imams 100+ years after the death of Rasul pbuh.



So would you now say we must follow Allah, Rasul, AND Imams?


This is what dictators and munfiqs did.

They kept on adding to Quran then to Rasul then to Imam then to Khalifa of the time and now bunch of beardo Mullahs.


So you see Islam has been corrupted just like Christianity got corrupted in mediaeval times?

As I said before

When Allah said Quran is now complete

Munafiqeen said, Quran is not complete

it is upto you to believe in Allah, or Munafiqeen.


Thank you
 
.......

This was the democracy we used to practice 14 centuries ago. And what is the history of current western democratic system? 4 centuries or so?

......

A good example of institutionalizing is "Moon sighting committee". State build an institute and almost 98% population of the country follow it. Imagine if we remove this institute,


PS: If i understand correctly, you are referring to Ahmedis in point 2?


Sorry to be deadly honest.

Please give up the stories.

Democracy is a modern concept like the concept of air travel, Iphones, internet, and what not.

Please do not confuse modern terms with the old system.

You cannot say that Muslims flew camels 14 centuries ago
Or donkey trains were better than the modern trains.
Or the pigeons did a better job in communication than Iphones.

I am not sarcastic.

I am serious.

Beucause my dear poster, you said Muslims had "democracy" 14 centuries ago.

They did not.

Back then it was a dictatorship by the Khalifa. He made rules and governed like an emperor like a king.

Just open any history book and tell me how Abbasi Khalifas were ruling or Ummayas or Berbers or Ottomans or Persians.

Not one of them had any democratic system.


So please do not make fun of democracy. Please do not make fun of your or my intellect.

Thank you.



p.s. 1 - Moon sighting is a joke. We should have a calendar. We have known exact position of the moon since the time of Keppler many many centuries ago. Please do not make fun of your or my intellect.


p.;s. 2 - Ahmadis declared all of us Kafirs first, that was wrong. utterly wrong. I was referring to that in point #2.

then we were even $tupider than Ahmadis when we declared them Kafir.
 
When you follow Quran, you are following Rasul automatically.

Who brought Quran to us? huh? tell me who brought Quran to us?

It was Quran that Rasul pbuh left for us in his lifetime.
He forbade not to collect his sayings. Because Rasul pbuh knew that his sayings are temporary and Qruan is for\ever.

As I said,

Allah swt doesn't care exactly how you meditate (salah) or how much you pay in charity. He swt just asks us to meditate and give charity. That's all.

The exact ways and amounts are to be decided in a given time.

Even Rasul pbuh didn't meditate (salah) in one set way.

mediation (prayer) method was only fixed only in the time of 4 Imams 100+ years after the death of Rasul pbuh.



So would you now say we must follow Allah, Rasul, AND Imams?


This is what dictators and munfiqs did.

They kept on adding to Quran then to Rasul then to Imam then to Khalifa of the time and now bunch of beardo Mullahs.


So you see Islam has been corrupted just like Christianity got corrupted in mediaeval times?

As I said before

When Allah said Quran is now complete

Munafiqeen said, Quran is not complete

it is upto you to believe in Allah, or Munafiqeen.


Thank you

Sir ALLAH doesn't waste time in writing things for no use Sir ALLAH and RASOOL SAW both have to be followed Sir ALLAH has said it several times and said it clearly Sir and also said what ever he gives you take and form what ever he stops stop yourself mr No Sir he has told the method of how to offer Salah and how to give zakat and how to perform hajj and Fast and also trade and economy rules some of them are in Quran but most are in Hadees Mr and RASOOL SAW did mediate Salah in one set way Mr those who want to run away from orders of Quran deny Hadees and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW have said who ever go against my Sunnah has nothing to do with me the meaning of complete you are taking wrong and hypocrites and and kharjis used to deny Hadees and reject orders of HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW and Quran and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW told that they will be in worst part hell Sir

Sorry to be deadly honest.

Please give up the stories.

Democracy is a modern concept like the concept of air travel, Iphones, internet, and what not.

Please do not confuse modern terms with the old system.

You cannot say that Muslims flew camels 14 centuries ago
Or donkey trains were better than the modern trains.
Or the pigeons did a better job in communication than Iphones.

I am not sarcastic.

I am serious.

Beucause my dear poster, you said Muslims had "democracy" 14 centuries ago.

They did not.

Back then it was a dictatorship by the Khalifa. He made rules and governed like an emperor like a king.

Just open any history book and tell me how Abbasi Khalifas were ruling or Ummayas or Berbers or Ottomans or Persians.

Not one of them had any democratic system.


So please do not make fun of democracy. Please do not make fun of your or my intellect.

Thank you.



p.s. 1 - Moon sighting is a joke. We should have a calendar. We have known exact position of the moon since the time of Keppler many many centuries ago. Please do not make fun of your or my intellect.


p.;s. 2 - Ahmadis declared all of us Kafirs first, that was wrong. utterly wrong. I was referring to that in point #2.

then we were even $tupider than Ahmadis when we declared them Kafir.
Sir Mirza Gulam Ahmed himself declared non Muslim kafirs

Quran & Sunnah : Significance of Hadith in Islam
Importance of Sunnah & Hadiths
The Science of Hadith: An Introduction
Read these links they will give you some help Mr
 
‘Wajibul Qatal’.
@niaz
:astagh: :astagh:

In all my life reading about Islam I am yet to hear how QATAL CAN BECOME WAJIB when Quran forbade it UNLESS during some circumstances which I had mentioned in my previous post...No do not bring me hadith as I can quote from the Quran how Qatal is not to be taken lightly nor in the hands of men...

Though there are incidents when one is allowed TO KILL but the next verse says if you are Merciful ALLAH likes those who show mercy or those who do not transgress...Please dont tell me you have never read that in the Quran, If you have not please read the Quran with translation!

O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Surah Al.Hujarat verse 11


So I advice whoever is throwing JUDGEMENT (When ALLAH is the judge) about other people should stop otherwise they are the wrongdoers and Mind you in Arabic the 1 who rejects an command/ advice of ALLAH is called 1 who did Kafr

Hence the hadiths which follows:

Holy Prophet said: "If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir".
Abu Dawud, Book of Sunna

Holy Prophet said: "No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him".
Narrated by al-Bukhari

"Withhold [your tongues] from those who say "There is no god but Allah" --- do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of "There is no god but Allah" as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself".'
Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar

"Three things are the basis of faith. [One is] to withhold from one who says "There is no god but Allah" --- do not call him kafir for any sin, nor expel him from Islam for any misconduct".
Narrated by Abu Dawud

"Whoever attributes kufr [unbelief] to a believer, he is like his murderer".
Narrated by Tirmidhi and Bukhari


Take your pick....


2ndly, about Wajibul Qatal, for anyone who knows Arabic knows such a word sounds insane! Qatal is NEVER wajib! It is ALLOWED under SOME circumstances BUT NEVER wajib!
 
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@niaz
:astagh: :astagh:

In all my life reading about Islam I am yet to hear how QATAL CAN BECOME WAJIB when Quran forbade it UNLESS during some circumstances which I had mentioned in my previous post...No do not bring me hadith as I can quote from the Quran how Qatal is not to be taken lightly nor in the hands of men.....!

Wow.

Thank you Thank you.


What you are highlighting in your post is in fact "religious corruption" of Islam and in Islam. Few of us are willing to analyze honestly as to how Islam got corrupted over time and gradually moved away from a simple egalitarian concept to a much more dogmatic and rigid set of rules and mumbo jumbo.

But it is really easy to see. Here is a quick summary.


Approximately 630 AD: Purest form that is Quran

Level-1 Corruption and additions: Approx 700 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) sayings and rulings

Level-2 Corruption: Approx 750 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam's (like Abu Hanifa) sayings and rulings

Level-3 Corruption: Approx 850 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat collections's sayings and rulings (like Bukhari)

Level-4 Corruption: Approx 1050 AD: More Additions--- Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat + Ghazali collections's sayings and rulings


Level-4 corruption proved to be the final nail in the coffin and by approximately 1100 AD, resulted in complete and ultimate death of innovation, science, and civilization.

From then on, few Muslim rulers lived on because the competition was not strong enough. But by 1400 AD, Europeans got rid of their religious corruption, and thus started the journey of progress, science, literature, art that continues till today.


Peace


p.s. I mean no disrespect to any individual or holy personality. This is just an honest and intellectual exercise on finding the causes of our backwardness today. We will remain in the dark ages as long we allow religious corruption.
 
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@FaujHistorian

Quran is not corrupted....

Nothing in the Quran says what these people claim

Quran CAN NOT be corrupted as it is for "till end of time" and ALLAH himself said in the Quran that HE will protect it...AND HE IS the best of protectors...

If someone analyzes it wrongly or quotes out of context, it is the person who is corrupt not the scripture!
 
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@FaujHistorian

Quran is not corrupted....

Nothing in the Quran says what these people claim

Quran CAN NOT be corrupted as it is for "till end of time" and ALLAH himself said in the Quran that HE will protect it...AND HE IS the best of protectors...

If someone analyzes it wrongly or quotes out of context, it is the person who is corrupt not the scripture!

Yeap. Quran is protected by Allah.


However I was talking about "religious corruption" in modern day Islam.


Hope you see the difference.


peace
 
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Hon sir,

Being a student of Islamic history, I have come across the story that there was a tradition of cursing Hazrat Ali ibne Abu Talib (RA) started by Ameer Muawiyah. This carried on until stopped by the pious Khalifa Omer bin Abdul Aziz. Ameer Muawiyah was a ‘Sehabi’ himself and majority of the Muslims accept all the Omayyad Khalifas without question.

Umayyad tradition of cursing Ali - Rediff Pages

I am also against showing disrespect to Sehaba Karam and those who do are definitely in error. My point is that this crime doesn’t make one ‘Wajibul Qatal’.

Your second point about Braelvis starting Takfir tradition and declaring people Wajib ul Qatal is also erroneous. Maulana Tahirul Qadri is a Braelvi scholar. I have heard many of his lectures. According to him declaring someone ‘Gustaakh e Rasool’ and Wajibul Qatal is incorrect. All the Muslim scholars of the Ummah must declare someone ‘Kafir’ before such ‘Hadd’ can be applied.

How can we declare some one Gustakh-e-Rasul(saw)& Wajib-e-Qatal?Dr.Tahir-ul-Qadri**By:*Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr M. Tahir-ul-Qadri - DeenIslam.Com

Finally, your contention that Pakistan Army trained suicide bombers during Soviet Afghan war is totally false and borders on treason. Kindly get your fact right before you malign Pakistan Army.

I repeat my assertion that I am not against the imposition of Sharia, but won’t accept such imposition by TTP. SSP, LEJ etc. as in my view these people have changed Islam from a peaceful forgiving religion into a vindictive blood thirsty creed. Their version of Islam is not what was preached by our holy Prophet (PBUH) who was nicknamed ‘Rahmatul al Alimeen’ for his patient & forgiving character.

By indirectly supporting suicide bombing, did you imply that it does not matter if one disregards clear instruction of Allah as revealed in the holy Quran?

Mr Respectable TT.

You sure know some historical aspects of Islam , but I don't understand that why are you using those internal disputes initially created by miscreants of that time just justify the traditions of cursing Companions of Holy Prophet S.A.W by Shi'te religion ? and why in a similar incomplete typical manner ? Your words on disrespect and the example you have mentioned itself contradicts each other .

Your second Answer , The scholar you used itself Rejected by the Barelvi Scholar , I myself is a student of (Hanfi Fiqah)Sunnah thoughts and I'm sure that you know that Tahir ul Qadri's Fatwas itself contradicts the Fatwas of the Grand Imam of Barelvi school of thought that is Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi , No student of barelvi school of thought accepts Tahir ul Qadri as a barelvi scholar . I can post some detail fatwas of Imam Ahmed Raza khan barelvi where he clearly declared Shi'te an infidel and a seperate religion , but it will be more harsh for atmosphere of this forum . Tahir ul Qadri followers are termed as Minhajis not as barelvis and better If this clown must not use the name of other sect which already have thrown him out due to his contraversial stances on several occasions..

I don't support militancey and suicide bombers but It would be better if you don't use the name of SSP with these militant organisations without any proof , They have sacrificed lot for Sunnis and as honourable Sunni I could not tolerate that any Minhaji would curse them without any credible proof . We already know that it was Tehreek Nifaz jafferia who had first ever tried to imposed their school of thought , It also affiliated with several militant organisations that have started target killings under the land lord of Jhang .

As of the involvement in Afghan Jihad in Soviat war is concerned then please some open truth must not be discussed repeatedly just because you believe in something else. As far as Suicide bombers are concerned then they don't Represent anyone , They are totally against those who respects the constitution of Pakistan , But don't understand that how these Minhajis are propagated with of wrong preception without any backup source.
 
Wow.

Thank you Thank you.


What you are highlighting in your post is in fact "religious corruption" of Islam and in Islam. Few of us are willing to analyze honestly as to how Islam got corrupted over time and gradually moved away from a simple egalitarian concept to a much more dogmatic and rigid set of rules and mumbo jumbo.

But it is really easy to see. Here is a quick summary.


Approximately 630 AD: Purest form that is Quran

Level-1 Corruption and additions: Approx 700 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) sayings and rulings

Level-2 Corruption: Approx 750 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam's (like Abu Hanifa) sayings and rulings

Level-3 Corruption: Approx 850 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat collections's sayings and rulings (like Bukhari)

Level-4 Corruption: Approx 1050 AD: More Additions--- Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat + Ghazali collections's sayings and rulings


Level-4 corruption proved to be the final nail in the coffin and by approximately 1100 AD, resulted in complete and ultimate death of innovation, science, and civilization.

From then on, few Muslim rulers lived on because the competition was not strong enough. But by 1400 AD, Europeans got rid of their religious corruption, and thus started the journey of progress, science, literature, art that continues till today.


Peace


p.s. I mean no disrespect to any individual or holy personality. This is just an honest and intellectual exercise on finding the causes of our backwardness today. We will remain in the dark ages as long we allow religious corruption.
Quran and hadees are both part of Islam and both have to be roll wed Allah has said follow Allah and his rasool saw and whatever rasool saw gives you take it and from whatever he stops you stop it from and hadees existed along with Quran in time of hazrat Muhammad saw and till this date Muslims have to follow both Quran and sunnah without hadees and sun ah most orders if Quran cannot be followed kharjis and munafiqeens used to run away from hadees because thy denied hazrat Muhammad saw and also wanted to run away from Quran

and religious corruption is done by those who deny hadees they are traitors and kharjis sir and they are the backward people
 
^^ Be honest Zarvan dear, be honest.

you are in fact promoting the highest level of religious corruption aka

Level-4 Corruption that started from approx 1050 AD. This is when pure teachings of quran were adulterated with the following:

1. Sahaba (rah) traditions
2. Imam (like Hanifa and others) traditions
3. Ahadis aka Sunnat (like Bukhari)
4. Imam Ghazali collections's sayings and rulings


Be honest. But you won't.


you know why?

Allah says Quran and deen was complete in 650AD

But Munafiqeen said NO it is not complete.


you promote Allah's words or Munafiqeens.

Your decision!
 
^^ Be honest Zarvan dear, be honest.

you are in fact promoting the highest level of religious corruption aka

Level-4 Corruption: Approx 1050 AD: More Additions--- Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat + Ghazali collections's sayings and rulings


Be honest. But you won't.


you know why?

Allah says Quran and deen was complete in 650AD

But Munafiqeen said NO it is not complete.


you promote Allah's words or Munafiqeens.

Your decision!

I promote words off Allah and his rasool saw because Allah orders Muslims to follow him and his rasool saw and the meaning of complete which you are getting is completely wrong you are promoting religious corruption and kharjis point of view they used to deny hadees and rasool saw said they would be in hell and without sun ah you can't follow Quran sir Quran even don't give details of orders which it gives Quran basic message is complete but details are in hadees you are taking completely wrong meaning of complete because you in reality want to run away from Quran and hazrat Muhammad saw
 
I promote words off Allah and his rasool saw because Allah orders Muslims to follow him and his rasool saw


Good.

Then use the teachings from Quran as per 650AD

And not the corrupted versions from 700, 800, 900, 1000 AD.

Why?

Medieval Christians corrupted their religion the same way as you are are promoting in this day and age.


peace
 
Good.

Then use the teachings from Quran as per 650AD

And not the corrupted versions from 700, 800, 900, 1000 AD.

Why?

Medieval Christians corrupted their religion the same way as you are are promoting in this day and age.


peace
sir I promote Quran and sunnah because they both have to be followed and without sunnah you can't follow Quran sir and you are promoting religious corruption by denying sunnah and hadees this is exactly what kharjis did and kharjis are destined for hell
 
Wow.

Thank you Thank you.


What you are highlighting in your post is in fact "religious corruption" of Islam and in Islam. Few of us are willing to analyze honestly as to how Islam got corrupted over time and gradually moved away from a simple egalitarian concept to a much more dogmatic and rigid set of rules and mumbo jumbo.

But it is really easy to see. Here is a quick summary.


Approximately 630 AD: Purest form that is Quran

Level-1 Corruption and additions: Approx 700 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) sayings and rulings

Level-2 Corruption: Approx 750 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam's (like Abu Hanifa) sayings and rulings

Level-3 Corruption: Approx 850 AD: Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat collections's sayings and rulings (like Bukhari)

Level-4 Corruption: Approx 1050 AD: More Additions--- Quran + Sahaba (rah) + Imam + Sunnat + Ghazali collections's sayings and rulings


Level-4 corruption proved to be the final nail in the coffin and by approximately 1100 AD, resulted in complete and ultimate death of innovation, science, and civilization.

From then on, few Muslim rulers lived on because the competition was not strong enough. But by 1400 AD, Europeans got rid of their religious corruption, and thus started the journey of progress, science, literature, art that continues till today.


Peace


p.s. I mean no disrespect to any individual or holy personality. This is just an honest and intellectual exercise on finding the causes of our backwardness today. We will remain in the dark ages as long we allow religious corruption.

You have put up major allegations regarding Hadees and Fiqah, and i presume its your personal opinion without any facts. In replying my post do mention atleast 1 corruption example each from the cases you have mentioned above in your post.

Islam is a "Deen". There is a slight difference between "Mazhab" and "Deen". Deen is a complete code of life, while mazhab part is which describe "How to" part.
Quran is the most complete book, which gives us complete Code of life. Consider it the guidelines. Now, tell me where in the Quran, the method of prayer (Namaz) is mention? Whether you belong to any sect, do tell me, where it is mention?

Similarly about "Wazoo", "Ghussal" and many other Islamic rituals we do, there exact way is not mentioned, only there "Order" is given.
Now why Sunnat of Hazrat Mohammad (SAW) is important? It is because He actually give us the practical implementations of Allah's commandments. Sahaba (companions) copied Him, and thats how muslims learn to perform Namaz, Hajj, Wazoo, Ghussal and everything else.
Now 14 centuries ago there were no printers, electronic media nor even papers. At the time of departure of Hazrat Mohammad (SAW) from the world, even Quran was not written in 1 single piece. It was during Hazrat Abu Bakar R.A time that it was written as a single book.

Similarly, Ahadees are sayings of Hazrat Mohammad SAW.
Now how can one deny the contributions of Sahaba, Tabies and Mohadaseens like Imam Bukhari in collecting and saving this wealth for the generations to come.

How can you dubbed everything as corruption without knowing "Asool-e-Hadees", "Asool-e-Fiqah" and Islamic history?

Asool-e-Hadees is such a vast knowledge, it is just like a "Titration experiment in Chemistry". We should be grateful to these persons for there untiring efforts in collecting, saving and passing on these Hadees and Sunnah knowledge to us.

And plunging ourselves in dark ages has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. We ourselves are violating Islamic rules and then cursing Islam for our downfall. Its the most stupid crime we are committing.

Its the same as i go to doctor and he told me not to smoke because it can cause lung cancer. But i continue to smoke 20 cigarettes a day and at the same time cursing doctor for my ill health also. Its my fault, i need to be corrected.

Allah said in Quran, Islam has been simplified for you to understand. It is just our fault, we have complicated everything.
 
......
Similarly about "Wazoo", "Ghussal" and many other Islamic rituals we do, there exact way is not mentioned, only there "Order" is given......

I could do lol on this but I digress.

--- Do you expect people to be this dumb that they don't know how to


1. shower,

2. brush their teeth, or

3. shave, or

4. use toilet



unless some beardo Mullah tells you how?

--- Who are your debating with Sir, someone living in tents of 10,00000 BC?


--- Even Romans knew how to bath, and shave, and clean themselves long before someone collected "Sunnah"


Perhaps we should blame mad house madrassahs for this decline in common sense.

Yes Siree. Please blame madrassahs for the low IQ.


Peace
 
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