Majestic Su 30 MKI's - Night operations - HD footage

[anathema]

before to next question may I know He made the kill on maximum range of WVR missile or less then the maximum range .... ???

That data does not exist in public domain. Atleast not that i have read.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

I could not agree more. PAF needs to show evidence that the SU30MKI was shot down. But we do know that PAF fighters locked SU30MKI's, and took several shots at them, while the SU30MKI with its famed BARS radar and superior avionics failed to take a single shot at PAF's fighters. I guess it was a shock for the fanboys who were proclaiming the SU30MKI Raptor of Asia.



Sir lets not go as to what is illogical and what is not. The story coming out India was that the PAF F16 pilot was lynched by the Pakistani public. Like, how stupid can you get, and please don't get me started on the cloud theory for radars.



It was more of a face saving for India, as there are multiple US technical advisers based on Air Bases housing F16's. Audit has already been done, and all the F16's accounted for.



That was more of an embarrassment for the IAF, i don't know what their PR team was thinking showing a wreckage of a missile that totally dominated the IAF. PAF at no point denied the presence of F16's. F16's were flying CAPS, at no point were they part of the strike package.



Fair enough, i wish the Indians could name the serial number of the F16 they shot down so PAF can fly them in the open air as well.



So PAF procured R77's through Ebay

Now look who's being silly

There are some things that are beyond the limits of human knowledge and that we will never know the answer to

1) What lies at the boundary of the universe?
2) Where did the fundamental particles for the big bang come from?
3) Which aircraft was shot down on feb 27th 2019 - Su-30 or F16?

 

[HRK]

That data does not exist in public domain. Atleast not that i have read.

OK .... I think before to comment I must requote what you posted

he employed R73 missiles

If I am not wrong the version which is in Indian Air force use have ~30 KM range, here one need to understand that no pilot would launch a missile at it maximum range which further mean that the [alleged] target was within 30 KM range, let say it was at 20-25 KM distance, If it is true then

What abhi clearly has told that - he could not id the aricraft

- Pilot of the MiG-21 was in position to establish visual recognition as in aerial dogfight 20-25 Km range is considered good if not ideal to establish visual recognition in broad daylight

- Any fighter pilot could not launch IR missile without achieving positive confirmation about the target either by avionics sensors or by visual

since Mig 21 lacks recognition capability that modern a/c's has.

There is no way when a pilot have FAILED to RECOGNIZE the Target he CLAIM to DESTROY then the identity of fighter must be achieved by other sensors, therefore

- Upgraded MiG-21 Bison are equipped with Radar Warning Receivers so they were capable to detect hostile radar signals and based on radar signature could differentiate the type of aircraft

- Radar of MiG-21 Bison must have Tracked the target as it is "Indian Claim" that upgraded MiG-21 Bison radar 'is' equivalent to "Earlier version of F-16" radars

If this was the case then he must not have any confusion about the target which he [or IAF] claim to hit, BUT the case is

- He was not aware about the target which IAF claim to destroy "till the time he was INFORMED by IAF" after his return to India

Now here is the twist as per India "OFFICIAL" claim [listen relevant part @0:45 sec] two areas where the Parachutes were sighted are only 8-10 km apart, here again recall that Abi was not able to establish the visual confirmation of its target as per Indian claim, here I would claim that Abhi was not blind nor mentally retarded that he could not recognize falling plane which he destroyed [as per IAF claim] just from the distance of 8-10 Km ....

BTW read this Indian source-1 [appeared in Aug-2019] which claim totally opposite picture than what you are saying or what IAF official said in his pressbrefing about the incident

 

[notorious_eagle]

Good - so we agree that same arguments apply. No Su 30 shot down since PAF has absolutely provided not a single proof

Agreed

PAF fighters may locked on and shot AMRAAMS at Su30's at Dmax1 range. It actually shows very poor BVR tactics by PAF - it may very well be a tactic (sort of hail mary pass) . Employing BVR at Dmax1 range - any fighter can defeat it by out maneuvering. Famed BARS radar was working allright - Su30's never got the firing solution ! Why - you may ask ?
1. Height differential - PAF F16's employed standard NATO tactics. Max height (55K FT) and shoot the AMRAAM at maximum range. Su's were i believe at 15,000 feet - no way they would have got firing solution.
2. R77 - Did not have the range. AMRAAM clearly had a long range!
There were two lessons that IAF publicly acknowledges (SDR and long stick) - both of which will be rectified ! It has nothing to do with Su30

We can call those tactics poor or not, matter of the fact is those tactics resulted in SU30MKI's buggering out of the hot zone where PAF fighters were dominating that particular sector. The BARS were not working alright because they were constantly getting jammed. The SU30MKI's didn't take a single shot, and along with the M2K's buggered out of the sector citing radar issues. They knew they would eventually get shot down, and took the smart decision of exiting the area.

I have heard those theories of PAF pilot lynched - but will not go there.

So you know how ridiculous this theory sounds. I feel amazed at the people who buy this garbage.

Cloud theory was not for radars - it was crystal Maze ! There was cloud cover over Balakot - so crystal maze PGM's could not be deployed, its seeker could not acquire the target.

I am talking about this, which was laughed at throughout the whole world

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...-modi-mocked-tech-gaffes-190513091851774.html

Radar coverage is limited in mountains - So Mig21 jumped F16

More like the F16 jumped the MIG21 lol. MIG21's were being cheeky flying low, but they forgot the Erieyes could see them clearly and relayed that to the F16's which locked and fired the AMRAAM.

You realize right , that USAF and Pentagon has no incentive to declare missing F16.

You can't hide a loss of F16

Here's the timeline of events -->
1. IAF in its presser mentioned presence of F16's in the force package.
2. Ghafoor denied the presence of F16's - recorded in video;
3. IAF called ISPR called him out by showing AMRAAM;
4. Ghafoor changed his statement overnight - conclusively established he was lying (That was the only objective of IAF & the fact they wanted to raise a middle finger to US)

Infact the entire case of PAF was made very weak by ISPR. There are so many discrepancies - it leaks like a sieve.

Lets not go there, as to who has discrepancies and who's case is weak. Where are those 300 terrorists and training camps obliterated? Satellite images clearly has debunked those Indian claims, or those so called imagined surgical strikes.

No idea about serial number. IAF laid all its cards on table - information will come out.

Its been more then 1 year, and where are those cards? Feel free to show us a video of the terrorist camps getting obliterated, similar to PAF released the video of the target that was engaged by PAF. Or maybe a HUD or any evidence of a shot down F16. The evidence that IAF showed, the radar picture was beyond pathetic.

Just the same way information came out after a decade of Kargil about active ops by PAK army soldiers OR after 2 decades about PAF F16 fraticide involving 2 F16's .

Please don't resort to lies to make a point

Nothing is impossible. After all who would have thought bin laden was staying so close to PMA kakul - people would have called that statement also silly at that time. R series of missiles are widely available - Afghan conflict would have given you access , China would have given you access - so many avenues.

Now you're clutching to straws, just to remain relevant. Sorry if i called you out on this ridicilous claim of buying R77 from Ebay lol hahaha. What's next, Abhi is a Pakistani haha

 

[anathema]

- Pilot of the MiG-21 was in position to establish visual recognition as in aerial dogfight 20-25 Km range is considered good if not ideal to establish visual recognition in broad daylight

HRK - we are in the world of conjecture ! The scenario you have laid out can only be debated by people who had SA that day. But what the hell - lets indulge
It maynot be a clear visual recognition. It can be as simple seeker getting a lock on. Remember ground controller was eyes for Abhi. As far as Abhi is concerned - he knew there were no friendlies in his area. He let loose R73 which had seeker lock - it was a passive intercept all the way ! F16 did not know at all. I am not saying he did not visually identify - he may have or may not. Point i am making is - he does not need to.

There is no way when a pilot have FAILED to RECOGNIZE the Target he CLAIM to DESTROY then the identity of fighter must be achieved by other sensors, therefore

This is where you are wrong in some way. Mig 21 does not have non-coperative aircraft recognition capability. In plain speak - the radar/HUD symbology will not tell you if its F16 or JF17; All Abhi will know is that there is a hostile aircraft in the space. Most probably Aided by ground controller .

- Upgraded MiG-21 Bison are equipped with Radar Warning Receivers so they were capable to detect hostile radar signals and based on radar signature could differentiate the type of aircraft

No it does not - thats a feature that relatively modern a/c's have. Su30's , F16's , etc. I can confirm Mig21 does not have that capability.

- Radar of MiG-21 Bison must have Tracked the target as it is "Indian Claim" that upgraded MiG-21 Bison radar 'is' equivalent to "Earlier version of F-16" radars

Actually i would beg to differ. It happened nothing like that. Mig 21 Bison took of from Srinagar; Pir Panjal ranges ensured that PAF Erie was not aware of the two Mig's that were taking off to intercept - this is confirmed by some reports which said that PAF controllers were taken by surprise on the sudden appearance of Mig's. As soon as Abhi climbed above the ranges - (1) his R73 seeker would have locked on OR (2) He would have delayed opening up his Kopyo radar to delay the possibility of adversary getting RWR signal. In any case - seeker got a lock on and he let loose. I am thinking the intercept was within 8KM - so in all probability it was scenario (1). It was complete passive intercept - which makes sense since F16 did not have a clue that R73 is headed his way.In all the entire engagement happened in 30 -45 seconds from Mig take off.The relatively high boresight of R73 meant , he does not need to visually sight the a/c as long as the seeker got lock on.
Again conjecture since that is the premise.

- He was not aware about the target which IAF claim to destroy "till the time he was INFORMED by IAF" after his return to India

He never knew what he hit - as i explained above. Only Ground controllers knew.

Abhi was not blind nor mentally retarded that he could not recognize falling plane which he destroyed [as per IAF claim] just from the distance of 8-10 Km ....

Abhi never knew - He let loose and turned to make home. Infact - if we were to tell him that you missed , he would have believed. He did not know. F16 going down was only confirmed through radar intercepts, EW , Comm and ground forces.

Agreed

Fantastic - 90% of the forum will not agree to this ! Nice to debate.

We can call those tactics poor or not, matter of the fact is those tactics resulted in SU30MKI's buggering out of the hot zone where PAF fighters were dominating that particular sector. The BARS were not working alright because they were constantly getting jammed. The SU30MKI's didn't take a single shot, and along with the M2K's buggered out of the sector citing radar issues. They knew they would eventually get shot down, and took the smart decision of exiting the area.

BARS had no issue whatsever ! Let me try to address points in a sequential manner.
1) Poor BVR tactics - All the AMRAAMS were launched at Dmax 1 or between Dmax 1 & 2. It has extremely low pk. This may be a tactic - of keeping enemies at bay OR praying for a hail mary pass. Not a single Su 30 fell for it.
2) BARS never had a problem. The two Su 30's were doing ensuring that they were adhering to MAR. If not they would have been toast. So they were cranking all the time - turning hot and cold all the time. They were looking for a firing solution. It never came - due to height differential and ofcourse AMRAAM being the longer range.
3) Heard Mirages had a problem - between you will quote an Indian reporters news item to conclude this. Nothing wrong with that. But the same reporter also said- JF17's were no willing to engage in fight ! M2K's were willing to pick up the fight. Whether it was jammed or not - i dont know. But lets conclude it got jammed.

I am talking about this, which was laughed at throughout the whole world

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...-modi-mocked-tech-gaffes-190513091851774.html

You are seriously using a politicians statements. His job is to convince domestic audience. Our reporters consider Rafale and mirage same - technically they are inept. No point in bringin this up.

More like the F16 jumped the MIG21 lol. MIG21's were being cheeky flying low, but they forgot the Erieyes could see them clearly and relayed that to the F16's which locked and fired the AMRAAM.

Radars cant see through mountain ranges. AWACS or not. ERIE was suprised when Mig21's came on the scene - due to pir panjal ranges. Pir panjal ensured that there was a blindspot. Its actually was a fav tactic employed by Iraqi forces , greek forces - loiter in mountain ranges and then jump the gun.

You can't hide a loss of F16

There's always a first time - anyways so is the case with Su 30 (if ever that happened)

Lets not go there, as to who has discrepancies and who's case is weak. Where are those 300 terrorists and training camps obliterated? Satellite images clearly has debunked those Indian claims, or those so called imagined surgical strikes.

45 days closing of Balakot camp ! After that a guided tour of Balakot camp which never took the journos to the main spot. Even after a year - journos disuaded from going to Balakot camp. I am not saying this - this is report from BBC. Pak Army - virtually blocked the entire access.

Its been more then 1 year, and where are those cards? Feel free to show us a video of the terrorist camps getting obliterated, similar to PAF released the video of the target that was engaged by PAF. Or maybe a HUD or any evidence of a shot down F16. The evidence that IAF showed, the radar picture was beyond pathetic.

IAF chiefs lament - we did not prepare for information warfare. That was the biggest lesson. Because his own country is critical - we are a complaining bunch. You can check his quotes. So no video exists - due to crystal maze being malfunctioned. Evidence of F16 shotdown - was presented to the media (radar intercepts, etc). Mig21 lies with you - you have the radar and HUD, how do you expect IAF to prove HUD images here ?

Please don't resort to lies to make a point

Dont tell me you dont know ! Its an incident that you guys brushed under carpet !

Now you're clutching to straws, just to remain relevant. Sorry if i called you out on this ridicilous claim of buying R77 from Ebay lol hahaha. What's next, Abhi is a Pakistani haha

In clandestine world - anythings possible. Are you telling me - PAK who was fighting proxy war with russians would not have had access to R73's ? I mean PAF was fighting RuAF - actively over AfPAk (atleast i have heard). With the numerous bases that were over run by mujahideen - you wouldnt have had access to R73 ? Common - its highly likely.

 

[Indos]

Loved the HD footage - seeing it for the first time. The afterburner and the sound has to be experienced !

Look like you havent heard the Sukhoi afterburner, the afterburner is massive when I saw several Su 30 fly above my house with low altitude and high speed.

 

[Tumba]

That data does not exist in public domain. Atleast not that i have read.

F-16 was locked and shot this is confirmed by Awacs and Abhinandan.... the target was a sure shot kill as because of passive nature of R-73 there was no way F-16 would ever known about Missile IR lock and Mig-21 was around 15 kms away from locked F-16... A Mach 2.5 missile gives you the prize in 20-25 seconds...
As per last communication ... Abhi confirmed had the lock and fired R-73E... only scenarios can be deduced here ... either Mig-21 got hit by ground fire or either one of other F-16s shot a bunch of Amrams or the same F-16 which was shot down fired BVR missile probably or an IR guided one before getting hit itself.

In either way IAF Awacs cant lie ... as F-16 got down before Mig-21 disappeared from radar ... all of it in 40-45 seconds.

 

[wali87]

Shocking to see how naive and deluded Indians are. I mean their heart knows that their government is hiding and lying just to save face, but they just don’t want to believe the truth. It’s like they’re in a dream and they know it’s a dream but they dont wanna wake up because accepting the reality hurts their ego.

 

[HRK]

HRK - we are in the world of conjecture ! The scenario you have laid out can only be debated by people who had SA that day.

this is not my scenario but a scenario presented to us by Indian media and repeated by Indian members here, Pakistani version which I have not debated is very clear that Abhi was not even aware about his presence in our side of LOC and did not launch any missile

But what the hell - lets indulge
It maynot be a clear visual recognition. It can be as simple seeker getting a lock on.

OK Abhi took a shoot without visual recognition but fail to identify the opponent jet even when a it was less km 10 Km as per official indian briefing .... ???

Remember ground controller was eyes for Abhi.

Which again as per Indian version Abhi was not even in contact with Ground controller, again read from Indian source

a young woman IAF controller sitting in a secure control room in Punjab shouted repeatedly, exactly a month ago. But Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman could not hear anything inside his MiG-21 Bison.

As far as Abhi is concerned - he knew there were no friendlies in his area. He let loose R73 which had seeker lock - it was a passive intercept all the way ! F16 did not know at all. I am not saying he did not visually identify - he may have or may not. Point i am making is - he does not need to

Abhi was not even aware that he has crossed LOC [again this is from Indian source]
read this

Not realising that he had crossed the Line of Control,

Secondly as per indian version [link] Abhi manage to achieve "RADAR ASSISTED" lock for his R-73.

While Alpha-2, Abhinandan’s No. 2 turned back, Abhinandan pressed on his quest to lock on to the marauding PAF jets. He had search mode indication of at least two F-16s on his Kopyo radar at 30–35 km range on course 290 degree. Wanting to make sure that he did not have any targets closer than that, Abhinandan switched over to his close combat mode on the radar and swept the area ahead of him trying to get a radar assisted lock for the R-73.

Plz keep in mind this piece was published in August 20,2019, which mean after debriefing and confirmation at IAF end so if we consider it true then Abhi was aware of the identification of the Aircraft IAF Claim targeted by Abhi

here recall initial point I raised

- Radar of MiG-21 Bison must have Tracked the target

but following is also one of the version of claims Indian media made, so which version is true ....???

What abhi clearly has told that - he could not id the aricraft since Mig 21 lacks recognition capability that modern a/c's has.

Now your point about situation awareness of F-16: Can you make anyone believe that in the presence of SAAB-2000 AEW&C + DATA link + APG-68(V9) Radar of F-16, F-16 was not even able to detect MiG-21 just at the distance of 20-30 KM, while it was able to launch multiple missiles at BVR range at Su-30s [again as per Indian version] ......???

Now do you even realize how idiotic the scenario of Dogfight presented by Indian side appear .... ???

No it does not - thats a feature that relatively modern a/c's have. Su30's , F16's , etc. I can confirm Mig21 does not have that capability.

plz read about the MiG-21 upgrades to bison standards from indian sources, I was taking you as serious poster but again a disappointment

Actually i would beg to differ. It happened nothing like that. Mig 21 Bison took of from Srinagar; Pir Panjal ranges ensured that PAF Erie was not aware of the two Mig's that were taking off to intercept - this is confirmed by some reports which said that PAF controllers were taken by surprise on the sudden appearance of Mig's. As soon as Abhi climbed above the ranges

you know in this thread or in some other thread you or some other Indian said that we Pakistanis have accepted ISPR version without critical thinking now here it is you who is posting such thing that even any amature who have little knowledge of modern aviation will laugh.

Just ask a simple question to anyone in India you think is knowledgeable how MiG-21 can hid itself from AEW&C then present this theory of surprise appearance of MiG-21 to the world; look its nothing personal so don't get offended, I responded to you post just because of those remarks as mentioned earlier I just want to expose number hole in theories presented by Indians and acceptance by them without raising "Rational Questions" ..... see you people were accusing us for what you people are suffering

Now listen one of the interview of the Radar Controller of Abhinandan aircraft Ms. Minty Agarwal [relevant part at 9:56 onward]
- At 9:56 she said that they inform their pilots well ahead of time about enemy activity and posture, but at 13:44 she said she was not sure Abhinandan was hearing her communication on that frequency which was shared by other aircrafts as well, which further mean if that frequency was jammed for Abhinandan aircraft than it was jammed for all other Indian aircraft as well in that vicinity, so how she was controlling the other aircrafts and vectoring them towards the targets ..... ???

Now who could explain this contradiction in the same interview and make it understandable for us .... ???

- At 12:07 she deflected a specific query about the launch of missile by Abhinandan on F-16 by saying that she was controlling many aircrafts and the air situation was very flexible and dynamic and she was controlling other missions also

BUT in another interview the very next day at August 15, 2019 [relevant part at 2:29] she claimed that she remember that F-16 was taken down by Abhinandan now question is how she is so sure that it was Abhi who shootdown F-16 [as per Indian claim] ....??

Communication was blocked/jammed Abhi was not in position to inform the ground controller about the Launch of missile, and other aircrafts were also present [as per her claim] so how she was sure that it was Abhi who scored a kill [as per Indian claim] ..... ???

Can one ignore the contradictions in her interviews .... ???

Keep in mind till now I have not debated any of Pakistani claims but only highlighting contradictions in Indian claims and seeking clarification, so If you are a free thinker and have the intellectual capacity then explains these few contradictions as presented in my post.

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

Actually all of you are wrong. How do I know? I was there on the mountains with my friends and shoot the whole fighting with my camera.

But unfortunately I forgot to take off the lens cover. So no photos. That's why I will never tell what really happened as proof is gone.

Punjabi ch kaha ta Lassi ch madhani paun waali gall a. Ridki Jao new theories naal. Kuj nahi niklana. There's no proof so just believe whatever make you happy and stop this shit.

 

[anathema]

OK Abhi took a shoot without visual recognition but fail to identify the opponent jet even when a it was less km 10 Km as per official indian briefing .... ???

Looks i have to repeat myself. Abhi's seeker got a lock, he let loose and turned. He may or may not have got visual recognition - it does not matter. Based on his SA - he knew there were no friendlies. It was adversarial aircraft.

Which again as per Indian version Abhi was not even in contact with Ground controller, again read from Indian source

Incorrect- you just cherry picked what supported your hypothesis. GC was in Abhi's touch when Abhi took from Srinagar for interception. GC must have given Abhi situation SIT REP. At some point when Abhi climbed over pir panjal ranges - PAF's EW aircraft must have jammed comm's. After that he could not hear any thing (radio silence) however (a) his seeker got a lock on signal since he was within the seeker range- he took the shot or (b) he climbed and cleared pir panjal ranges around 20k feet - turned on kopyo at the last moment so that PAF a/cs would not be alerted with RWR & took a radar guided shot. Both of the scenario is possible.

Abhi was not even aware that he has crossed LOC [again this is from Indian source]

Seems that is the case. Abhi was not aware of postion due to comm jam - whats the point ?

Plz keep in mind this piece was published in August 20,2019, which mean after debriefing and confirmation at IAF end so if we consider it true then Abhi was aware of the identification of the Aircraft IAF Claim targeted by Abhi

Sameer Joshi is ex M2K pilot - but there was no debrief done to him. So to claim he is presenting correct picture - may not be appropriate. But lets take your word for it. Even if what you have pasted is true - it still does not prove Abhi knew the identity of the aircraft. At 30-35km when he turned on kopyo radar - his radar symbology will show a triangle which represents bogey. It does not tell him - its a F16 or JF17 ! Remember i told you mig 21 does not have non cooperative aircraft recognition tech; A su 30 would have been able to paint the picture with exact a/c. In other words - Abhi can never tell which aircraft he shot down - only IAF AWACS/Ground radar can tell.

Now your point about situation awareness of F-16: Can you make anyone believe that in the presence of SAAB-2000 AEW&C + DATA link + APG-68(V9) Radar of F-16, F-16 was not even able to detect MiG-21 just at the distance of 20-30 KM, while it was able to launch multiple missiles at BVR range at Su-30s [again as per Indian version] ......???

Now do you even realize how idiotic the scenario of Dogfight presented by Indian side appear .... ???

It just shows you dont fathom or understand the combat scenarios at all. In your naiviety you think air combat is extremely simple. Let me explain again.
Pir Panjal ranges create a natural valley - Srinagar airport where Mig21's are based is situated in this valley. So for your SAAB-2000 to track Mig21's , it has be extremely close or above the airbase. If ERIE was flying way inside the PAK border then there is no way it can detect fighters flying out of Srinagar airport due to pir panjal ranges. You see mountains present a natural barier to radar waves - in essence it creates a blind spot.

From one of your links -->
"Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s AWAC failed to detect them. The sudden appearance of the MiGs proved to be a blessing for India, as the Pakistani fighters were taken aback.
Panicked Pakistani pilots, who broke into Punjabi rather than sticking to the military codes, fired about 11 H-4 glide-bombs, weighing 1,000 kg each, at Indian military installations, none of which hit the target."

And since you are interested in knowing western world tactics - listen to this episode of fighter pilot podcast by USAF pilots . They precisely talk about this scenario - enemy fighters surprising them in mountain ranges. Its pretty enlightening. Actually its a well known tactic.

plz read about the MiG-21 upgrades to bison standards from indian sources, I was taking you as serious poster but again a disappointment

Looking for a way out are you ? Its not my statement - its IAF chiefs statement. Mig 21 do not have that capability - infact older generation a/c's dont have that capbility. I dount if PAF's F7 has that capability. Regardless of what we think - not all a/c's have similar technology. Keep the bias aside- you will learn something new.

Just ask a simple question to anyone in India you think is knowledgeable how MiG-21 can hid itself from AEW&C then present this theory of surprise appearance of MiG-21 to the world; look its nothing personal so don't get offended, I responded to you post just because of those remarks as mentioned earlier I just want to expose number hole in theories presented by Indians and acceptance by them without raising "Rational Questions" ..... see you people were accusing us for what you people are suffering

What i talked about is extremely rational. I dont take anything personal - just interested in truth. You should read on iraqi tactics and greek tactics of talking cover under mountains and jumping the enemy a/c - read that long time back. Not able to pull out the links.

Now listen one of the interview of the Radar Controller of Abhinandan aircraft Ms. Minty Agarwal [relevant part at 9:56 onward]
- At 9:56 she said that they inform their pilots well ahead of time about enemy activity and posture, but at 13:44 she said she was not sure Abhinandan was hearing her communication on that frequency which was shared by other aircrafts as well, which further mean if that frequency was jammed for Abhinandan aircraft than it was jammed for all other Indian aircraft as well in that vicinity, so how she was controlling the other aircrafts and vectoring them towards the targets ..... ???

HRK - do you understand how it all works ? Did you read what you just posted ? Minty gave a sit rep to abhi when he took from Srinagar. Abhi was in touch with Minty till he cleared Pir Panjal. As soon as he cleared Pir Panjal - his coms were jammed by a EW aircraft present in the vicinity. Her statement actually explains it. Jamming does not occur over a wide area (i mean it can - but it would require tremendous power which neither PAF or IAF has. Only USAF has). Jamming occurs in certain direction or limited area. Most probably PAF might have employed some type of SPJ.

Now who could explain this contradiction in the same interview and make it understandable for us .... ???

- At 12:07 she deflected a specific query about the launch of missile by Abhinandan on F-16 by saying that she was controlling many aircrafts and the air situation was very flexible and dynamic and she was controlling other missions also

BUT in another interview the very next day at August 15, 2019 [relevant part at 2:29] she claimed that she remember that F-16 was taken down by Abhinandan now question is how she is so sure that it was Abhi who shootdown F-16 [as per Indian claim] ....??

HRK you are trying infer something that is really straightforward. There was no deflection - it was straight forward answer. The situation was fluid and abhi was not her only responsbility. Infact Abhi wouldnt have known which a/c he brought down - only GC like minty would have known. She saw radar track vanish.

Communication was blocked/jammed Abhi was not in position to inform the ground controller about the Launch of missile, and other aircrafts were also present [as per her claim] so how she was sure that it was Abhi who scored a kill [as per Indian claim] ..... ???

Have you flown planes ? Have you talked about air traffic controller ? There are situations when the traffic controller is able to hear you properly - and you are not able to hear them at all. Thats what jamming does. Abhi's comms were jammed - but it doesnt mean IACS comms were jammed. The problem with this entire thought process - you are thinking in linear dimensions and in a simplistic manner. Also secondly - are you really telling that PAF jammed ALL the a/c's in the region (Migs, Su's , M2k's , Phalcon Awacs , Netra AWECS, etc) ? Do you have any idea what kind of power an EW aircraft would require to accomplish this task ? Even growler (s) wont be able to accomplish what you are infering.

Can one ignore the contradictions in her interviews .... ???

You are desperately trying to search for contradictions in order to make yourself believe that this is all a hogwash. Hence this constant tusle - shes a junior ranked office - who really tells as it is. In plain speak - she will never be politically correct.

 

[GriffinsRule]

F-16 was locked and shot this is confirmed by Awacs and Abhinandan.... the target was a sure shot kill as because of passive nature of R-73 there was no way F-16 would ever known about Missile IR lock and Mig-21 was around 15 kms away from locked F-16... A Mach 2.5 missile gives you the prize in 20-25 seconds...
As per last communication ... Abhi confirmed had the lock and fired R-73E... only scenarios can be deduced here ... either Mig-21 got hit by ground fire or either one of other F-16s shot a bunch of Amrams or the same F-16 which was shot down fired BVR missile probably or an IR guided one before getting hit itself.

In either way IAF Awacs cant lie ... as F-16 got down before Mig-21 disappeared from radar ... all of it in 40-45 seconds.

Please provide evidence that Abhi has confirmed as such that he locked and fired the R-73 as you claim.
If not, we all believe you guys are lying flat out and there is no such claim made by him.

 

[Cuirassier]

Astonished how douchebags still believe an F-16 and Su-30MKI were shot down.

 

[Tumba]

Please provide evidence that Abhi has confirmed as such that he locked and fired the R-73 as you claim.
If not, we all believe you guys are lying flat out and there is no such claim made by him.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Vardhman: Abhinandan’s last radio message said he had locked on to Pak F-16 | India News - Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ocked-on-to-pak-f-16/articleshow/68238027.cms

this is as per widely reported radio charter and same was confirmed in interview by controller.

Regarding debriefing of Abhinandan to IAF/MOD... as per Abhinandan he had locked chased and fired R-73E... and immediately went cold towards LOC and then hit...

regarding confirmation of kill that was recorded by Awacs and also seen by Indian soldiers of LOC posts..

now sending a mach 2.5 IR guided missile by own seeker from around 15 kms ... and without any warning of passive missile there is absolutely no chance a F-16 could have dodged that missile

 

[notorious_eagle]

Fantastic - 90% of the forum will not agree to this ! Nice to debate.

Thank You. Now please implement that on yourself and start providing us with the evidence of the shot down F16 which you certainly believe happened.

BARS had no issue whatsever ! Let me try to address points in a sequential manner.
1) Poor BVR tactics - All the AMRAAMS were launched at Dmax 1 or between Dmax 1 & 2. It has extremely low pk. This may be a tactic - of keeping enemies at bay OR praying for a hail mary pass. Not a single Su 30 fell for it.
2) BARS never had a problem. The two Su 30's were doing ensuring that they were adhering to MAR. If not they would have been toast. So they were cranking all the time - turning hot and cold all the time. They were looking for a firing solution. It never came - due to height differential and ofcourse AMRAAM being the longer range.

If the BARS had no issue, why were they running around like headless chickens and buggered off from the Sector as soon as they realized how much danger they were in. You can call the tactics poor or good, fact of the matter is the F16 dominated the SU30MKI. One fighter was throwing punches and the other was dodging them, and in the end just ran away from the fight. Who won?

3) Heard Mirages had a problem - between you will quote an Indian reporters news item to conclude this. Nothing wrong with that. But the same reporter also said- JF17's were no willing to engage in fight ! M2K's were willing to pick up the fight. Whether it was jammed or not - i dont know. But lets conclude it got jammed.

If the JF17's were not willing to fight the M2K's, why did the M2K's exit the sector after getting consistently locked by the JF17's. PAF fighters did not run away from the sector, in-fact they were dominating the sector daring the IAF to come out and fight them, but unfortunately the IAF didn't want to play that day. You asked for PAF's Data-Linking capability in another thread, here is another clue for you, the JF-17's were receiving real time information from the Erieyes and knew exactly where the IAF's fighters were.

You are seriously using a politicians statements. His job is to convince domestic audience. Our reporters consider Rafale and mirage same - technically they are inept. No point in bringin this up.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-marshal-raghunath-nambiar-1535669-2019-05-27

Here you go with Professionals backing up PM Modi.

Radars cant see through mountain ranges. AWACS or not. ERIE was suprised when Mig21's came on the scene - due to pir panjal ranges. Pir panjal ensured that there was a blindspot. Its actually was a fav tactic employed by Iraqi forces , greek forces - loiter in mountain ranges and then jump the gun.

Is this a joke? One of the main reasons why PAF acquired AWACS was to detect low flying small aircrafts hiding between mountain ranges. Erieye was not surprised, and PAF's radars were tracking the MIG21 flying low for quite some time. Nauman could see the MIG21 clearly, and this is why he painted it, and launched his AMRAAM towards that. This is an old age IAF tactic of low flying MIG21's and M2K's for which PAF devised a counter strategy more than a decade ago.

45 days closing of Balakot camp ! After that a guided tour of Balakot camp which never took the journos to the main spot. Even after a year - journos disuaded from going to Balakot camp. I am not saying this - this is report from BBC. Pak Army - virtually blocked the entire access.

Did you happen to see the satelittle pictures? Where are the 300 dead bodies? Why weren't Pakistan's hospitals in the area overwhelmed since 300 especially for a small town like Balakot is a lot of dead people.

Even Reuters does not believe you my friend. You're fighting a loosing fight. Feel free to blame Reuters as an ISI funded news network.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V

IAF chiefs lament - we did not prepare for information warfare. That was the biggest lesson. Because his own country is critical - we are a complaining bunch. You can check his quotes.

Fair enough, but we have you to thank for. Kargil taught us one thing, and that is why we needed Pakistani media to be vibrant like yours.

Evidence of F16 shotdown - was presented to the media (radar intercepts, etc).

That's not a proof, i can forge much better on Microsoft Paint then what IAF did.

Dont tell me you dont know ! Its an incident that you guys brushed under carpet !

It was not a secret, it was open news and the base commander got sacked for his incompetence. You're really underestimating your clandestine network inside Pakistan. India heavily monitors Pakistan's deployment of its major weapons, this is something that cannot be hidden.

In clandestine world - anythings possible. Are you telling me - PAK who was fighting proxy war with russians would not have had access to R73's ? I mean PAF was fighting RuAF - actively over AfPAk (atleast i have heard). With the numerous bases that were over run by mujahideen - you wouldnt have had access to R73 ? Common - its highly likely.

When someone is desperate to clutch to straws, the mind can be very creative. Lets take one step further, the R73's were teleported by martians to Pakistan and then put on display. Please continue with your creative mind fantasies.

I honestly don't get it. What is this ego thing that the Indians have made it about themselves. Its quite simple, PAF just had a good day and IAF had a bad day. It's that simple, PAF was better prepared and executed their drills with a lot more efficiency then the IAF did. Do i think the IAF learnt from this and will be more deadlier the next time, Hell yes. But why make it so much about your ego, coming up with these fantasies of R73 bought from Ebay. Like come on.

regarding confirmation of kill that was recorded by Awacs and also seen by Indian soldiers of LOC posts..

Ya nobody believes that, infact people laugh at it. Kind of similar to the claim of killing 300 people and destroying the terrorist camps.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...standing-at-indian-bombing-site-idUSKCN1QN00V

Still waiting for the proof of the downed F16