Mahaaz Kashmir LOC Pakistan |24 September 2016 - Dunya News

[Signalian]

HJ-12 and infantry version of Cirit (70mm laser guided rockets with 8km range) should be procured for infantry.

The infantry deployed there doesnt have HJ-8/Baktar Shikan/Green Arrow even when its widely used by PA, whereas HJ-12 is a newer generation missile. RPG-7 is unguided but its easier to carry and deploy.

My guess is that:

1.Cost issue of using an ATGM to destroy a non-armoured target.
2. RPG-7 with 40mm caliber and combination of SPG-9 RR with 73mm caliber and 60mm mortart is good enough firepower to destroy the hardened bunkers used by IA.
3. If the above weapons are not enough then artillery is used to take out stationary targets with 130mm caliber guns.
4. A guided missile system is used to take out manoeuvrable targets like tanks and AFV/APC.There are stationary targets on LOC , so a guided missile system is not deemed necessary.

 

[Zarvan]

I accept your reply ! You have changed your posts and art a lot, you have become more rational ! While my post about the Base attack was more anger than anything else !

regards.

@Zarvan by the way The Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic is a long-range maritime patrol aircraft designed and manufactured by Breguet Aviation.

And why are you telling me about that jet ???

 

[Signalian]

A selam, how are you ?

I am working this days, so could not give a detailed Re-Briefing to your Kashmir-Operation posts, I only read and give short Replys.

I agree in every point about the difficulties for a offensive operation at the LOC, which you have pointed out very well in post 236 and in this topic.
Another point is the sheer overhelming number of Indian Forces in Kashmir, I would never support any large scale Offensive Operation at the LOC, we would need a 5-7 times bigger force to conquer the indian strongholds. As far as I see it, after obersving the number of Indian mountain Divisions and airborne Brigades, and analysing their military media, we have to reckon a massive Indian attack in this sector, the indians have a very high number of airborne brigades and special forces battalions in Kashmir.
But their supposed strength in numbers, is also their weakness, a bigger number of indian Troops need also more logistic and supply. The tempting high quantity of human and machines will lead the indian Generals to offensive operations, which is also a part of their doctrine. In my opinion We Pakistanis are endowed, when it comes to defensive operations, our strongholds at the LOC made of bunkers, trench lines, holes and tunnels in the mountain will build a bullwark against the indian invasion waves ! Our defence preparations at the LOC are reaching even our backland and go deep under the earth (remember the battle of Iowa).
This concentrated Pakistani defence at the LOC, forces the indians to concentrate the bulk of their forces in Kashmir if they desire offensive operations, so the Ratio is and will be ca. 7:2,5 for the indians, this over streching of logistic, rosources, troops and machine makes the indians more vulnerable in other frontlines such as the Punjab-Mahaaz. And thats good so, because it will give the Pakistani Generals less headche at the fronts like Sindh/Rajastan/Thar/Multan/Punjab etc. and may be the opportunity for offensive operations to penetrate India. Did you get my point ? I am asking, because my english is not perfect !

regards

Part 2: Mountain defence preparation at LOC by Pakistan


Part 3: Defensive and reserve equipment of Pakistan at the LOC.

Yar, I have seen and read worse english, your is perfect, i got your point

Indians have more troops and a parachute brigade also. they have more aviation assets than Pakistan.
My thinking is that its easier for india to attack on desert/southern punjab front where it can exploit lots of manoeuvring ground as well as there are lesser formations of Pakistan Army deployed in the south than in north.

Secondly, Pakistani aim is to capture Kashmir, Indian aim is to finish Pakistan. So even if you pick up history, Pakistan is attacking along LOC, where as India is attacking lahore, sialkot, rann of kutch, threatening desert in 1980's excercise as well as in 2001/2 stand off.

Indians had conducted an attack in Myanmmar last year using air assault forces or special forces. Such a type of attack can be expected in pakistan also.

 

[Basel]

The infantry deployed there doesnt have HJ-8/Baktar Shikan/Green Arrow even when its widely used by PA, whereas HJ-12 is a newer generation missile. RPG-7 is unguided but its easier to carry and deploy.

My guess is that:

1.Cost issue of using an ATGM to destroy a non-armoured target.
2. RPG-7 with 40mm caliber and combination of SPG-9 RR with 73mm caliber and 60mm mortart is good enough firepower to destroy the hardened bunkers used by IA.
3. If the above weapons are not enough then artillery is used to take out stationary targets with 130mm caliber guns.
4. A guided missile system is used to take out manoeuvrable targets like tanks and AFV/APC.There are stationary targets on LOC , so a guided missile system is not deemed necessary.

But for company level fighting capability, Cirit a 70mm Laser guided rocket system with 8km range will be good weapon to have with air burst & other munitions it will be good against moving infantry and stationary targets.

 

[Army research]

But for company level fighting capability, Cirit a 70mm Laser guided rocket system with 8km range will be good weapon to have with air burst & other munitions it will be good against moving infantry and stationary targets.

It would be good zarvan bhai so would drones guns with good optics etc etc but cost issue so what pak has done is cost effective defense what the guys on loc would do is that they would wait for Indian assault make them lose in a battle of attrition and the counter attack with help of the commando platoon discussed as spearhead against specific posts and then use the break through as a opening to assault other bunkers from behind so as to make the Indians incur heavy losses and withdraw troops from other important sectors where then breakthrough can be made see our doctrine is to always poke here or there so as to stretch them as much as possible and then exploit a weak point for break through and as for their armoured assault our tactical missles ( conventional) can deal damages to them and if we do a feignt attack in rajahstan their armor will mass there and missles take them out while our forces hit them elsewhere and for Kashmir we have sleeper cells and locals militias on our side if we take out a single highway with and improvised ied for even one day it will be a logistical night mare for them and if such ops succeed they will be out of ammo and using above tactic of attrition it will be even easier plus more pow for bargain and shock assaults work fine , look at example of German armour against French in 1940 the fresh had way better tanks etc but the shock attack from the ardennes forest was in anticapatefd and one break through led to destruction by attrion of fresh and in this case locals were disturbing German supply , think about it

 

[Basel]

It would be good zarvan bhai so would drones guns with good optics etc etc but cost issue so what pak has done is cost effective defense what the guys on loc would do is that they would wait for Indian assault make them lose in a battle of attrition and the counter attack with help of the commando platoon discussed as spearhead against specific posts and then use the break through as a opening to assault other bunkers from behind so as to make the Indians incur heavy losses and withdraw troops from other important sectors where then breakthrough can be made see our doctrine is to always poke here or there so as to stretch them as much as possible and then exploit a weak point for break through and as for their armoured assault our tactical missles ( conventional) can deal damages to them and if we do a feignt attack in rajahstan their armor will mass there and missles take them out while our forces hit them elsewhere and for Kashmir we have sleeper cells and locals militias on our side if we take out a single highway with and improvised ied for even one day it will be a logistical night mare for them and if such ops succeed they will be out of ammo and using above tactic of attrition it will be even easier plus more pow for bargain and shock assaults work fine , look at example of German armour against French in 1940 the fresh had way better tanks etc but the shock attack from the ardennes forest was in anticapatefd and one break through led to destruction by attrion of fresh and in this case locals were disturbing German supply , think about it

The program show what normally happens or happens in skirmishes but when full blown war started you through whatever you have, remember during Kargil Indians came all out with all they could through, there is a reason towed Panters 155mm 52 caliber, were purchased, because they outmatched what India can deploy now. It usually depends what caliber is used, if IA raises caliber then PA does the same.

 

[django]

As always great show.
Well the best part of the show was, when Jawans said, "hum civilians pe attack Nahi karte" and then there are ********.
It was heart breaking to see that young lady in this condition. She's too young yet to be disabled.
Pakistan including Kashmir Zindabad and armed forces Paindabad.

indeed it was gut wrenching to see.

Thank you for sharing, its a very informative video and shows the problems of LOC and conducting infantry operations in this area.

Your welcome sir, the terrain is indeed formidable and we can most certainly use it to our advantage defensively, also our troops seem to better equipped than their adversaries etc I would take a type-56-2 over the terrible INSAS any day of the week.Kudos Sarge

 

[X-2.]

I don't think Army allows shows during exercises with other countries

What if they share piece of cake with us and will send some fuel to neighbour lollol

 

[Signalian]

But for company level fighting capability, Cirit a 70mm Laser guided rocket system with 8km range will be good weapon to have with air burst & other munitions it will be good against moving infantry and stationary targets.

Mortar has a few advantages over conventional artillery guns due to trajectory problems, dead space, limited road networks and positioning area. Mortars can be positioned closer and fired directly into defiles, trenches and bunkers.

Cirit will be harder to carry along with its ammunition, it will need LOS in most cases while mortar may not.
Mortar can fire on the back side of the mountain while cirit may not be able to do so.

 

[thrilainmanila]

By the way can any one tell about vests these soldiers wearing. They looked really good. I am hoping that soldiers will been seen with new ASSAULT Rifles really soon hopefully SCAR and new AK-15 and also RPG 7 gets replaced by either new RPG 32 or new Carl Gaustav or both.

I never underestimate enemy. Pakistan due to less numbers have always focused on hard training. Our training has always been better than them in all three forces. As for counter insurgency yes they are fighting for 26 years and they would keep fighting for next 26 years. Still we are far better in training yes they can have more equipment but this war on terror has also reduced that. We have dealt far more ruthless enemy for past 10 years than any country has. What we need to focus is getting more Air Defence systems. China in past 10 years have come up with at least 15 new Air Defence systems. It's time we go for at least 6 new 3 short range and 3 medium range also we need become partners in helicopter projects of both China and Turkey and also get more from Russia.

you talk about pak armys training better then IAs, i think this is just a myth. There is no way of measuring who has the better training, india spends 50 billion dollars on defence, they have more money to provide there army better training then pakistan does. Pakistans doctrine is to fustrate an indian advance and slow it down, hence the maze like bunkers and trenches, india has more specialized troops like para commandos etc, there objectives are seek and destroy, fighting rag tags in FATA doesn't help when your fighting an army of a million with a 50+ billion defense expenditure. the problem with pak army is the generals higher up, the soldiers officers etc are up there with NATO but the generals and higher ups find a way to let them down its happened repeatedly.

 

[Inception-06]

you talk about pak armys training better then IAs, i think this is just a myth. There is no way of measuring who has the better training, india spends 50 billion dollars on defence, they have more money to provide there army better training then pakistan does. Pakistans doctrine is to fustrate an indian advance and slow it down, hence the maze like bunkers and trenches, india has more specialized troops like para commandos etc, there objectives are seek and destroy, fighting rag tags in FATA doesn't help when your fighting an army of a million with a 50+ billion defense expenditure.

And one more nice topic grilled by indians !

I hope you will be banned in the next 24 hours .

@waz here is the next candidate !

 

[thrilainmanila]

And one more nice topic grilled by indians !

I hope you will be banned in the 24 hours .

@waz here is the next candidate !

how am i an indian i just reiterated what you mentioned in your post, i think you need to practice your english more.

 

[Inception-06]

how am i an indian i just reiterated what you mentioned in your post, i think you need to practice your english more.

@waz please check this !

 

[TheNoob]

you talk about pak armys training better then IAs, i think this is just a myth. There is no way of measuring who has the better training, india spends 50 billion dollars on defence, they have more money to provide there army better training then pakistan does. Pakistans doctrine is to fustrate an indian advance and slow it down, hence the maze like bunkers and trenches, india has more specialized troops like para commandos etc, there objectives are seek and destroy, fighting rag tags in FATA doesn't help when your fighting an army of a million with a 50+ billion defense expenditure. the problem with pak army is the generals higher up, the soldiers officers etc are up there with NATO but the generals and higher ups find a way to let them down its happened repeatedly.

Ofcourse, that is what it is from indian perspective.
Although not all of what you said could be true.

Money does not buy smarts.

 

[Signalian]

you talk about pak armys training better then IAs, i think this is just a myth.

Between 22 to 24:30 of the video, the officer talks about experienced, battle hardened troops and then about training. he also explains the situations that PA has experienced in the western border but IA has not experienced it yet. He accumulates all these points in one word as "better training".

There is no way of measuring who has the better training, india spends 50 billion dollars on defence, they have more money to provide there army better training then pakistan does.

Now you are talking like an accountant who wants to make sure that every cent spent in some cause generates some result.
Put a battle hardened and experienced soldier who can be called as "veteran" infront of a soldier who has spent the same number of years in service and given all duties but has not been in combat.

which of them will be more deadly in combat and will be chosen by the commander for an assault?
The veteran, ofcourse.

This is the difference in quality that the officer is talking about.

Pakistans doctrine is to fustrate an indian advance and slow it down, hence the maze like bunkers and trenches, india has more specialized troops like para commandos etc,

A defensive maze may be illogical, boring and a pain for brain to understand, but if its really like all that, then half of its job is done. Confuse and slow down the enemy.
You havent seen the defensive trenches on the India side, do u think there will a garden with fountains and they will be welcoming PA troops with offer fruit cake and tea ?

Pakistan also has specialized troops which are SSG, LCB's and commando platoon of an infantry battalion.

there objectives are seek and destroy, fighting rag tags in FATA doesn't help when your fighting an army of a million with a 50+ billion defense expenditure.

These "rag tags" have made the ISAF sit in their fortresses in Afghanistan and they only get bombed by ISAF jets and UAV's. when Afghan police/army and ISAF muster up courage to fight these "rag tags", they take causalities, fall back and call in air and artillery strikes.

PA troops hunt these rag tags down to the last hiding hole to the last man, either kill or capture them and hold ground. ISAF cannot hold ground neither can Afghan police or Army.

the problem with pak army is the generals higher up, the soldiers officers etc are up there with NATO but the generals and higher ups find a way to let them down its happened repeatedly.

pointing fingers is easy, wearing red tapes is not.