M60 Phoenix Main Battle Tank

[BLACKEAGLE]

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the Jordanian Army uses Western Tanks ! Yup...unbiased as always ! But do go through the Al-Khalid Thread or better yet open an Eastern vs Western Tank Design comparison thread because I know as much about a tank as I do about holding an RPG whilst sitting in a tub with wheels attached to it !

No, it has nothing to do with Jordanian western tanks. As I said, I used to be a fan of Russian weapons (a crazy one) and used to wonder about our regimes abstinence from buying them although they were cheaper and more effective till I got better military knowledge that took me years to learn, I am not saying I am right or knowledgeable regarding this field but I haven't got yet the answers or at least the counter argument I was looking for.

 

[Armstrong]

No, it has nothing to do with Jordanian western tanks. As I said, I used to be a fan of Russian weapons (a crazy one) and used to wonder about our regimes abstinence from buying them although they were cheaper and more effective till I got better military knowledge that took me years to learn, I am not saying I am right or knowledgeable regarding this field but I haven't got yet the answers or at least the counter argument I was looking for.

Whatever you say MS, open a thread on the comparison ! I'm personally a massive fan of the Eastern design as you call it !

P.S Our Army knows more about Armour then most Armies of the Muslim World out there and they've used the Western Pattons in the past and the Eastern Tanks hence forth even when we had the money to spare ! I reckon if they made the choice in the past...they would have seen something in the Type 59s and others that made them pick them over the Pattons or any other Western MBT we could have gotten our hands over; heck we didn't even go for an upgrade to the Pattons we had !

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Whatever you say MS, open a thread on the comparison ! I'm personally a massive fan of the Eastern design as you call it !

P.S Our Army knows more about Armour then most Armies of the Muslim World out there and they've used the Western Pattons in the past and the Eastern Tanks hence forth even when we had the money to spare ! I reckon if they made the choice in the past...they would have seen something in the Type 59s and others that made them pick them over the Pattons or any other Western MBT we could have gotten our hands over; heck we didn't even go for an upgrade to the Pattons we had !

How dare you?!
We were basically talking about 3rd gen tanks, it's true that we started with 2nd gen but the 3rd gen was the core issue. Western tanks proved their superiority in the past in Arab-Israeli wars. Eastern tanks failed miserably in other wars as well, and the best example has just came to my mind was Libyan-chad war in which Libyan Soviet made T series used to stuck into sand, Chad rebels used 4 by 4 trucks with DSHK installed over them armed with RPGs as well, and yet burn Libyan tanks down by shooting at their weakest spots while moving around so Libyan slow moving hull wouldn't catch them. You can find other examples in Chechen-Russian wars where Russians themselves admitted their tank serious flaws.

 

[Armstrong]

How dare you?!
We were basically talking about 3rd gen tanks, it's true that we started with 2nd gen but the 3rd gen was the core issue. Western tanks proved their superiority in the past in Arab-Israeli wars. Eastern tanks failed miserably in other wars as well, and the best example has just came to my mind was Libyan-chad war in which Libyan Soviet made T series used to stuck into sand, Chad rebels used 4 by 4 trucks with DSHK installed over them armed with RPGs as well, and yet burn Libyan tanks down by shooting at their weakest spots while moving around so Libyan slow moving hull wouldn't catch them. You can find other examples in Chechen-Russian wars where Russians themselves admitted their tank serious flaws.

With the deepest of respects my brother ! If you're beaten by an enemy 1/20th your size who is facing you from all directions then you've seriously foOked up somewhere strategically and it ain't the equipment that failed ! Its a little like how we foOked up so bad in '71 that what was a Civil War turned into an Invasion of what was then East-Pakistan by India !

As for the Chechen Wars ! Dude I bet if you take an aim at an M1A2 from the top of a window in the middle of an apartment complex it'll get toasted too ! And didn't the Vietcong did the same to the Americans in the '60s or the North Koreans in the Korean War ? Didn't the Hezbollah did the same to the Merkava which for all intents and purposes is probably the tank that values 'crew protection' over everything else.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

With the deepest of respects my brother ! If you're beaten by an enemy 1/20th your size who is facing you from all directions then you've seriously foOked up somewhere strategically and it ain't the equipment that failed ! Its a little like how we foOked up so bad in '71 that what was a Civil War turned into an Invasion of what was then East-Pakistan by India !

As for the Chechen Wars ! Dude I bet if you take an aim at an M1A2 from the top of a window in the middle of an apartment complex it'll get toasted too ! And didn't the Vietcong did the same to the Americans in the '60s or the North Koreans in the Korean War ? Didn't the Hezbollah did the same to the Merkava which for all intents and purposes is probably the tank that values 'crew protection' over everything else.

And have you asked yourself how many Israeli or American tanks were destroyed? and in contrast check how many Korean, Iraqi, Russian and Libyan tanks were destroyed. We are not saying Western tanks are immune against attacks but rather more protected and reliable.

 

[Armstrong]

And have you asked yourself how many Israeli or American tanks were destroyed? and in contrast check how many Korean, Iraqi, Russian and Libyan tanks were destroyed. We are not saying Western tanks are immune against attacks but rather more protected and reliable.

Thats hardly a comparison on an even footing ! The M1A2s don't operate in a bubble when the American Armored Formations go for a ride...they've goodies available to them that the Libyans, the Iraqis or the Koreans couldn't even think of..! *they still can't*.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Thats hardly a comparison on an even footing ! The M1A2s don't operate in a bubble when the American Armored Formations go for a ride...they've goodies available to them that the Libyans, the Iraqis or the Koreans couldn't even think of..! *they still can't*.

That's exactly what I have been trying to say, with including the Russians as well. They belong to the same generation, but Western tanks were always superior. It's enough to know they are superior by the doctrine that the Soviets adopted, they counted on quantity over quality while the West counted on quality and less quantity, and since modern Russian tanks are based on T series, they inherited some of the flaws we talked about. That's why Russians have been trying to produce a brand new tank that's entirely different from former T series introduced by Blackeagle tank.

 

[Armstrong]

That's exactly what I have been trying to say, with including the Russians as well. They belong to the same generation, but Western tanks were always superior. It's enough to know they are superior by the doctrine that the Soviets adopted, they counted on quantity over quality while the West counted on quality and less quantity, and since modern Russian tanks are based on T series, they inherited some of the flaws we talked about. That's why Russians have been trying to produce a brand new tank that's entirely different from former T series introduced by Blackeagle tank.

Dude, I think this was what Desert Fox was trying to allude to ! The Soviet Area tanks didn't have any significant fundamental design flaws but that the improvements were missing. No ERA, not a good gun, no use of composites, not too great rounds, not a great optical sensor, no Trophy like system or Varta ! But all of them are add-ons....you don't have to re-invent the bloody tank for that ! Barring the gun everything can be fixed with the simple variable called 'liquidity' - Cash - Buy them all ! Broke - Lets try running the tank on a cell phone's battery !

 

[LegionnairE]

Anyways dudes, I was speaking theoretically anyway. We all know how western tanks like Leo2, M1, Challenger2 kicks arse. I wouldn't make any statements about Leclerc though, I don't like that french sh*t.

I honestly believe Altay will exceed M1 and Leo2. Their core designs are getting old too you know.

 

[BLACKEAGLE]

Dude, I think this was what Desert Fox was trying to allude to ! The Soviet Area tanks didn't have any significant fundamental design flaws but that the improvements were missing. No ERA, not a good gun, no use of composites, not too great rounds, not a great optical sensor, no Trophy like system or Varta ! But all of them are add-ons....you don't have to re-invent the bloody tank for that ! Barring the gun everything can be fixed with the simple variable called 'liquidity' - Cash - Buy them all ! Broke - Lets try running the tank on a cell phone's battery !

Not true at all, Desert Fox was trying to show us how Al-Khalid tank is more reliable than American Abrams, he deliberately tended to concentrate on the early versions of Iraqi T-72 with giving no regards to the era those tanks were produced in, and yet the fact that those tanks weren't that far off from the Soviet tanks were being developed at the time, I mean, it's true they were downgraded versions but even the Soviet upgraded versions were not reliable either in comparison with their Western counterparts. However, Iraqi example was one among several which he ignored.

Model Turret vs APFSDS Turret vs HEAT Hull vs APFSDS Hull vs HEAT
T-72 'Ural' 380 mm (15 in) 490 mm (19 in) 335 mm (13.2 in) 450 mm (18 in)
T-72A[18] 500 mm (20 in) 560 mm (22 in) 420 mm (17 in) 490 mm (19 in)
T-72M 380 mm (15 in) 490 mm (19 in) 335 mm (13.2 in) 450 mm (18 in)
T-72M1 420 mm (17 in) 490 mm (19 in) 400 mm (16 in) 490 mm (19 in)
T-72B[19] 520 mm (20 in) 950 mm (37 in) 530 mm (21 in) 900 mm (35 in)

 

[Desert Fox]

I am 100% sure that Al-Khalid would have survived those attacks...

No, the "mighty super duper" m60 phoenix with its secret impenetrable armor would have came out without even a scratch.

Yes off course, Al-Khalid would have floated and even flown away.

If only it was a boat with wings, perhaps, but its a Tank that weighs 13 tons less than the 60 ton Abrams and therefore would have had a far better chance of pulling itself out than a heavy MBT like the Abrams.

I am sorry Fox, this is just an invitation for laugh, comparing Al-Khalid with M1A2 is more of a joke that no reasonable person would dare to make.

You're the one who brought Al-Khalid into the discussion by posting that info of armor thickness

Even then I'm not/wasn't comparing them, just giving examples of each Tank to refute your argument that Western Tanks are invincible to irregular warfare and guerilla tactics while all Eastern Tanks go "kaboom" from being hit by small arms fire.

none the less, Showing random pictures of destroyed tanks without giving info about them (the points were hit, the weapon used...etc ) prove that you are either clueless or lack logic,

Well, first of all, i need not even post the info about those pics, they speak for themselves and would be enough to refute your silly argument that "all Eastern Tanks are vulnerable to Guerilla warfare and have no crew protection, etc", while "Western Tanks are some wonder machines that are invulnerable" and other nonsense.

So with all of this nonsense in your argument, what really would be the difference between your logic and no logic at all? Answer: There is no difference.

I hope you know that RPG-29 is different from RPG-7 and a 6 kg mine is different from a 20 kg mine.

On the one hand you're implying that you do not have info as to how these Abrams were destroyed but on the other you're making silly assumptions (once again) that they were hit by RPG-29's and 20kg mines. How do you know what they were hit with? Even a RPG 29 should be useless against such "advanced" Chobham Composite armor of Abrams (according to your logic from your previous posts).

So how could the Chobham armor be defeated by RPG-29? I thought Chobham was invincible?

Funny thing about you blackeagle is that you are amplifying the cause of destruction of the Abrams while trying to downplay the cause of destruction of the Eastern Tanks in order to save your retarded argument which has already miserably failed after i popped your balloon logic to smithereens , so again, how do you know if the Pakistani Tank was hit by a 6 kg and RPG-7?

Didn't you claim before that all Eastern Tanks go "kaboom" just from being hit by a 50 cal. bullet, but now your implying it got hit by a RPG-7, do you contradict yourself this often in real life as well? I wouldn't be surprised.

And you yourself even proved my argument indirectly (or rather directly), i'm sure the other members agree with me too.

 

[Armstrong]

Khan, thats not what I meant !

 

[Desert Fox]

The point he was trying to make was that an Al-Khalid was designed keeping in mind the environment it would be called onto operate in ! Even if we had the M1A2s...they'd be a waste in the mountainous insurgency ridden areas of Pakistan's North-West because these behemoths are as suited to those areas as a killer whale is to a goldfish's aquarium ! Plus the AKs are supposed to operate in the fertile plains of North and Central Punjab where a 55 ton tank would again be at a massive disadvantage because they'd get more owned by the rice paddies then by whatever the Indian's had to throw at us. Even in terms of the autoloader this works for us because the generally accepted criticism aimed at an autoloader is 'the fresh 4th man hence less workload'; well our entire width (on average) is about 200 kms and our FOBs are right next on the border...we don't have to travel half the country like (say!) KSA would...its just a few minutes drive !

The point is tanks are good or bad depending upon what scenarios they were envisioned to operate in !

Even you get my logic and the point of my argument while this blackeagle it seems is so hell bent, or better yet, desperate on proving that Western Tanks=Superior to Eastern Tanks based on his little knowledge of Iraqi Gulf War 1 Tanks and Soviet Era Tanks. But what he doesn't realize (unfortunately) that this is the 2012 and 21st century and that he needs to stop living in the cold war, its been over since 22-23 years and Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. Some people need to stop living in the past.

 

[Armstrong]

Even you get my logic and the point of my argument while this blackeagle it seems is so hell bent, or better yet, desperate on proving that Western Tanks=Superior to Eastern Tanks based on his little knowledge of Iraqi Gulf War 1 Tanks and Soviet Era Tanks. But what he doesn't realize (unfortunately) that this is the 2012 and 21st century and that he needs to stop living in the cold war, its been over since 22-23 years and Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. Some people need to stop living in the past.

Be gentle on him he's my Brother too ! His wife left him thats why hes so grumpy !

P.S I know as much about tanks as I do about Cardiothorasic Surgery ! So I'm not that great a person to debate with thats why I said you left me hanging, Khan from Mazang !

 

[Desert Fox]

Be gentle on him he's my Brother too ! His wife left him thats why hes so grumpy !

P.S I know as much about tanks as I do about Cardiothorasic Surgery ! So I'm not that great a person to debate with thats why I said you left me hanging, Khan from Mazang !

I've been a bit busy lately., don't have time to get on that often but do so when i can. But i still came back didn't i?